# Alternate scenarios for the geographical setting of the Jewish State **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832 "2011-05-23T00:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/41 "2011-05-23T10:08:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > If what I’m saying has no validity, care to explain why the Jews, who are something like 1% of the world’s population, have won around 20% of Nobel Prizes? Or why Israel, despite its tiny size, produces more start-up companies than the United States? Do those figures concern European/American Jews only, or does it still work for all of Earth’s Jews? If it’s the latter, there’s a (at least one) big flaw in your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/42 "2011-05-23T10:09:47Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I generously offer Sweden to the Jews as their new homeland. Hehe, I suppose they could build a wall around Malmö as a miniature Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/43 "2011-05-23T11:13:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think it’s absolutely absurd to discount the idea that a particular culture can have certain pervasive ideas about studiousness, education and work ethics and that these factors can result in that group being, on average, smarter. I’m not saying that Jews have some kind of “smart gene,” just that the culture, overall, has demonstrated a degree of intellectual and scientific skills far out of proportion to its numbers. > > If what I’m saying has no validity, care to explain why the Jews, who are something like 1% of the world’s population, have won around 20% of Nobel Prizes? Or why Israel, despite its tiny size, produces more start-up companies than the United States? Is there a single monolithic Jewish culture? 'Cuz I talk to this guy over here and he says, “Of course! Look at NY, with the bagels and lox and the talking-with-the-hands!” and I talk the guy the over there, and he says, “Of course not! We have the Ashenazim, Sefaradim, and the Mizharim! Not to mention, the Falasha and all the other African Jews! Oh yeah, and those Hassidim! Where in the hell did they come from?! We’ve been in a Diaspora for thousands of years, for goodness sake. How are we all gonna have the same culture!?” If Israel is composed of the world’s brightest, why isn’t it at the top of the [most educated countries of the world](http://www.topix.com/forum/world/finland/TIK1LTLBK4ONO4QKS)? It’s among the top 27 most wealthy countries, but it’s beat out by Kuwait, Ireland, snd Spain. Guess those people are smarter than the Jews, eh? 'Tis much easier to say that there’s a subset of Jews, usually Ashenazi Jews, who–when they put down stakes–tend towards academic and intellectual pursuits, than to generalize this observation to all of a Judaica. While living in northern NJ, I met many a Jew who went working out in the heat with the Latinos and the blacks, painting houses and pouring concrete, and probably were lucky if they had a tenth grade education. But they were very devout…they even had a shul in the basement just for them. Perhaps they were weirdos for their “culture”, but there were a lot of them were I lived. People try to generalize black people all the time (we’re dumb, we’re athletic, we’re cool, we’re irresponsible, we’re soulful, we’re overly emotional and child-like, we’re materalistic, we’re poverty-striken), and I’m sure you could find some statistics to back up any of these claims. But they are lies. The truth is that we’re all of these things AND their exact polar opposites. Because like the Jews, we are comprised of many ethnicities and cultures and individuals…the only thing black people on a global scale share is really our tendencies towards darker skins and curlier hair, and a few cultural ties that have not been severed completely. If I’m going to accept your premise that we can accurately stereotype the Jew, then it follows it’s possible to do the same with black people. And I just can’t go along with that. But perhaps I’m biased because almost all the stereotypes for “my” people are bad, and almost all the ones for “your” people are good. You know what’s funny? I don’t know you well, **Argent** , but I have a distinctive feeling from your posts that you belie many of the Jewish stereotypes (like being a nerd and being physically weak). And I know I’m a walking testiment to the fact that lies have been told about my people (except I do like fried chicken). So why aren’t we able to be on the same page about this? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/44 "2011-05-23T12:12:39Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The resilience of the Jews is not based on anything special about them, but instead based upon a willingness of Christian and Muslim rulers for the past ~2,000 years to shelter and harbor Jews. You do realize Jews didn’t settle in all those European countries secretly? They were often times invited there. It is true that at various times they were also later expelled or persecuted, but if not for the fact Christian and Muslim rulers viewed Jews as being cut from the same religious cloth they would have been treated in the _exact_ same way as the native religion of the Lithuanians, which was truly exterminated from the earth (and has been resurrected as a pseudo-religious cultural movement in the late 19th/early 20th century.) Or for a closer comparison, you can compare Jews (and Palestinian Mulsims & Christians) with the Druze and especially the Samaritans, ethnically- and historically-closely-related groups who do not have anywhere near the same visibility in these kinds of discussions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/45 "2011-05-23T12:24:40Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Am I wrong in thinking that maybe there shouldn’t be a country/state set aside for any particular religion or race? No. I agree, it’s the bit (still having the special Right of Return) about the situation in Israel that rankles me most as an outsider, even though I understand the historical underpinnings. I think a policy of global diversity would stand Jews as a grouping in better stead, in terms of survivability, than a special ethnic homeland _cum_ stronghold. But if one accepts the citadel-homeland solution to the survival problem, there’s really nowhere _but_ Israel (whatever its borders) for that place to be. The only other place that’s \*historically \*as suitable for the title of “Jewish homeland” would be [Babylon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity#Significance_in_Jewish_history), really, and, well, let’s say that’s not … workable, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/46 "2011-05-23T12:27:53Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The average IQ of an Oriental is 106. And what’s an “Oriental”, mmmm? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/47 "2011-05-23T13:28:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And what’s an “Oriental”, mmmm? It’s a kind of rug. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/48 "2011-05-23T13:34:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s a kind of rug. For some reason, that made me think of _Big Bang Theory_: [QUOTE=Sheldon cooper] Leonard, please don’t take this the wrong way but the day you win a Nobel Prize is the day I begin my research on the drag coefficient of tassels on flying carpets. [/QUOTE] Substitute “Prove the existence of biological race” for “Win a Nobel Prize” and I’m there. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/49 "2011-05-23T13:41:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is true. Jews are one step below Asians on the racial smartness scale. It’s too bad they are naturally money grubbing. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The average IQ of an Oriental is 106. The average IQ of an Ashkenazic Jew is 112. I hereby hand treis the “Poe’s Law” award for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/50 "2011-05-23T14:11:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Jews can have Texas. All of it. But they have to promise to keep the natives on reservations and **never let them out.** Best of all, they can make Kinky Friedman president. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/51 "2011-05-23T14:13:47Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I mean, the Jews are brainy people, and ambitious; if anyone could make the land work, it would be the Jews. I realize the OP introduced this silly tangent himself, but at this point it’s pulled most of the focus from the original topic, and I’m declaring this hijack is closed. If you want to discuss culture and education, open a new thread. And save the Jewish jokes for joke thread, please. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > During the Second World War the Palestinians supported the Nazis. During the Cold War they supported the Soviet Union. This is also not relevant. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The average IQ of an Oriental is 106. The average IQ of an Ashkenazic Jew is 112. Your views were being parodied. If you want to try to get others to take them seriously, please open a separate discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/52 "2011-05-23T14:49:01Z")
Wasn’t there already a whole bunch of Jews living in British Palestine? Like, more than anywhere else in the world? Wasn’t the creation of Israel a local movement which was actually resisted, not encouraged, by the British government? I might have my history mixed up, here. ETA: I actually know (well, knew, since he is deceased) a man who was in command of a US military ship that was ordered to prevent Jewish refugee emigration to Israel by sea during the aftermath of WW2. We need to be rid of the notion that the USA and Britain “gave” a bunch of land to Jews to create Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/53 "2011-05-23T14:56:09Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Am I wrong in thinking that maybe there shouldn’t be a country/state set aside for any particular religion or race? I want people to be able to be safe and everything, but is setting up a big gated community really the best answer? Maybe I’m being naive, I don’t know. Depends on how concerned you are with preserving an ethnic group’s traditional culture. Jews in America became Americans. Jews in Israel . . . actually developed a **new,** Hebrew-speaking national culture. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/54 "2011-05-23T15:19:25Z")
As I understand it, the main difficulty with the Uganda project et cetera was that, although it appealed to Jews in Western Europe who were awfully keen for there to be a Jewish state somewhere but less keen to actually go there[3], it did not appeal to the Jews who wanted to get the fuck out of Russia and who were willing to either (a) try to get to America or that failing somewhere else where the cossacks wouldn’t burn down their village or (b) go to the Holy Land but not so interested in © joining up on a purely theoretical Utopian project in the middle of Africa somewhere they hadn’t heard of. I also don’t think the Uganda project, which I think was the only thing besides that bit of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean that was seriously proposed at the time[1], would have ended up much differently than Israel-as-it-stands. Even allowing that the area in question was as sparsely inhabited as the Uganda project advocates indicated[2] the subsequent history could have gone in two directions: 1 - The new country, due to its geographic isolation et cetera, would have ended up economically stagnant, with the result that no one with any possible choice would have gone there and those people would move on asap; end result: probably not a viable state in the end. 2 - The new country would have overcome its geographical isolation to become a dynamic, growing economy, in which case all the Africans who (as posited above) didn’t actually live there but did live pretty close by would have moved to the country to take advantage of the economic opportunities. How this would have played out in the post-colonial era is left as an exercise for the reader. [1] not counting Stalin’s bright idea which was about as good as most of his ideas apart from killing everyone who could be a threat to him, which you have to admit was successful at achieving its aim. [2] I have no counterevidence but am :dubious: concerning such claims for the simple reason that every fucking time anyone ever anywhere in history has made such a claim it has turned out to be lies lies lies. [3] At the time; they were much keener once the Western Europeans started killing them by the millions for some reason or another. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/55 "2011-05-23T15:39:59Z")
The best proposal was the island of Cyprus. Secure, no hostile neighbors, adequate resources, and climate similar to palestine. Think about it-no need for expensive armed forces, good climate, and no nasty neighbors lobbing missiles into your cities. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/56 "2011-05-23T15:51:12Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The best proposal was the island of Cyprus. > Secure, no hostile neighbors, adequate resources, and climate similar to palestine. > Think about it-no need for expensive armed forces, good climate, and no nasty neighbors lobbing missiles into your cities. I don’t suppose this proposal mentioned what to do with the two ethnic groups already extant on the island? I’m sure the Young Turks would have been totally cool with the Turkish-speaking minority being pushed to third place. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/57 "2011-05-23T15:55:32Z")
I say Texas. Then we’ll shift the balance of power in the Dems’ favor, fix their education system, and make Houston the new tec valley of the 21st C. eta: Hey, don’t mod me. I can think of no logistical homeland besides what already exists…but a relocation of Jews to Texas means that the US-Israel relationship will finally be beneficial to every naysayer. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/58 "2011-05-23T16:32:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Depends on how concerned you are with preserving an ethnic group’s traditional culture. Jews in America became Americans. Jews in Israel . . . actually developed a **new,** Hebrew-speaking national culture. Well, that’s not exactly preserving, if it’s new, but that aspect of it is probably not such a bad thing, IMHO. But how far do we go? I’m not begrudging anyone anything, but there are Africans, Native Americans, and many, many others that experienced genocide, disenfranchisement and loss of traditional lands and get nothing. What about them? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/59 "2011-05-23T22:07:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Or for a closer comparison, you can compare Jews (and Palestinian Mulsims & Christians) with the Druze and especially the Samaritans, ethnically- and historically-closely-related groups who do not have anywhere near the same visibility in these kinds of discussions. Most likely after reflection if Christian and Muslim leaders did not share an affinity for Jews they would have instead probably ended up not eradicated but they would be very small and mostly unknown today (see: Zoroastrinism.) Of course positing a world in which Muslims and Christians did not view Judaism as their religious ancestor is a dramatic departure from the real history of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/60 "2011-05-23T22:22:10Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Am I wrong in thinking that maybe there shouldn’t be a country/state set aside for any particular religion or race? I want people to be able to be safe and everything, but is setting up a big gated community really the best answer? Maybe I’m being naive, I don’t know. Like, how Germans live in Germany and the Irish live in Ireland? It’s true that there are multiethnic states, such as India where no one ethnic group has a majority or plurality, but the reverse is much more common. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832.md?page=4)