# Alternate WWII History: What if the Axis Controlled the Oil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065 "2011-05-07T13:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/21 "2011-05-09T13:21:41Z")
One of my professors argues that WWII was because of oil. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/22 "2011-05-09T13:51:31Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, they certainly couldn’t have denied oil to the US, but they could have accessed the Middle Eastern oilfields described above and had enough fuel to operate effectively. The bigger victory would have been to cut the Soviets off from Baku’s oil (which, if I understand it correctly, would be “phase 2” of Keegan’s fantasy scenario). They could have accessed it, but they then would have to _produce_ it which requires quite an investment of capital and machinery, not to mention the logistics of getting oil from Saudi Arabia to the European front. IMHO, once they invaded Russia and declared war against the US, you essentially had Germany vs. the rest of the industrialized (and industrializing) world, a scenario in which it is difficult to imagine any realistic chance of them winning WW2, even if they secured Middle East oil prior to invading the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/23 "2011-05-09T17:40:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think it would have made a strategic difference. Look at Japan - they did capture their oil source (the Dutch East Indies). Germany capturing the Caucasus region would have been the equivalent. > > The Allies had a huge logistic lead over the Axis and there was no realistic way the Axis would ever overcome that during the war. The only hope the Axis had for victory was that the war would be decided on non-logistic factors. The Axis would never win a war of attrition. Japan’s case is a little different, in that everything had to be sent by ship to the Home Island industries. I think it was easier to blockade Japan than to try to interuppt the flow of oil overland from the Caucasus to Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/24 "2011-05-09T18:35:25Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I don’t know where the myth came from that Greek and Yugoslavian resistance saved Russia, but it’s not true. Yugoslavia collapsed almost instantly _despite_ its fantastically defensible terrain, and while intervention in Greece was romantic for the British, it was militarily humiliating and had no effect on the weather in Russia. My guess is it gives meaning to an otherwise unmitigated disaster and humiliation of the British being kicked off the continent by Germany yet again. Worse, the troops sent to Greece were pulled out of or were otherwise slated to be sent to North Africa where the British were successfully driving the Italians back in Libya; were it not for this diversion the British might have successfully wrapped up the North African campaign instead of being defeated there as well with the arrival of the Afrika Korps. Yugoslavia truly did fold like a house of cards; Germany only lost 151 killed overrunning the country. It also makes Barbarossa seem like a much closer run affair than it actually was with the implication that but for those six weeks Germany would have won the war. It’s much like the myth of the Siberian divisions being released at the last moment from facing Japan, saving Moscow and being decisive in defeating the Germans; the reality was the Siberian troops were a tiny fraction of the forces thrown against the Germans, troops from Siberia had been going west to fight the Germans from the start of Barbarossa, and that Operation Typhoon was going to grind to a halt and the Soviets were going to launch a massive counter-offensive with or without them. There’s a pretty good dissection of the Siberian myth [here](http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-Busters/Mythbusters3.html). The truth was the Germans consistently and grossly underestimated the size of the STAVKA reserves. There were enough reserves for Stalin to make the mistake of expanding the counter-offensive against Army Group Center to a counter-offensive along the entire front from Leningrad to the Black Sea. > [@abel29a](#): > > Also, the fact that Barbarossa would have been more or less impossible due to weather was also something I didn’t know. Did Hitler know this when he commited himself in the Balkans, or was this just a coincidence that actually meant the Balkan campaign did not delay Barbarossa? A bit of both, May 15 was a pretty optimistic start date even if the weather wasn’t unseasonably bad and would likely have been pushed back anyway. Hitler had a tendency to set dates that had to be postponed; he originally scheduled the invasion of France and the Low Countries for November 12, 1939(!) and it was postponed more than a dozen times, as late as a postponement from May 7, 1940 to May 10, 1940 when it was actually launched. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/25 "2011-05-09T18:35:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If we didn’t use oil we would have used natural gas or products from natural gas. Ships would have used coal. Aircraft fuel would have been the hardest thing to synthesize and that was doable. I don’t really know if that would have been feasible. The Texas Eastern line which transports natural gas from Texas to the North East traces its roots back to the necessity of transporting crude oil from Texas to the North East during World War II. Essentially, after Germany constantly sank tankers transporting crude, the Big Inch and Little Inch pipelines were built to send crude oil up to north. This wasn’t even in operation until mid 1943. Therefore, transporting natural gas would have been essentially impossible as it could not be transported by tanker and no pipeline existed at the time to get it up north. Also, assuming we were able to use coal for ships, synthetic fuels for air, and natural gas for domestic manufacturing, how would we have fueled tanks? ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/26 "2011-05-09T19:12:12Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Allied oil mostly came from the United States. The Middle East was not a factor in WW2 as it only was producing 5% of the worlds supply of petroleum in 1944, compared to 60% of the worlds supply for the US. > > The only way for the Axis to “control the oil” was for them to invade Texas, Oklahoma, and California. 😉 This is exactly correct. My understanding is that H.L. Hunt alone produced almost as much oil as the entire Axis powers during the war. I have read that 6 billion of the 7 billion barrels of oil used by the Allies during World War II came from the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/27 "2011-05-09T21:48:05Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > A successful Germany might not yield to 1 nuke every 3 months? If Hitler didn’t surrender after Berlin was reduced to a smoldering crater there probably would have been another assassination attempt, and it probably would have worked. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/28 "2011-05-10T03:42:16Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Oil had been discovered in Iran as far back as [1908](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Persian_Oil_Company); in [Iraq](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Petroleum_Company#Oil_Found_in_1927) in the 1920’s; and in [Bahrain and Saudi Arabia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Aramco#Timeline) and in [Kuwait](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait_Oil_Company) in the 30’s. Thanks. From the Saudi Aramco link, it looks I was conflating this bit: > [@](#): > > 1956 Aramco confirms scale of Ghawar and Safaniya, the largest onshore and the largest offshore field in the world, respectively. with discoveries around the region. Now I know better 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/29 "2011-05-10T04:15:40Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > If Hitler didn’t surrender after Berlin was reduced to a smoldering crater there probably would have been another assassination attempt, and it probably would have worked. Well… I still think that depends on how big a difference controlling the oil makes for the Axis, whether it is enough to change the nuke-development timeline, and also whether the Germans expected a nuke of their own anytime soon. If controlling the oil meant knocking Russia out of the war and also compromising the British, things might have turned out very differently. As of now I still don’t know which way to go. From [this page](http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-Busters/MythBusters2.html) from **Dissonance** ’s cite: > [@](#): > > The combat results for 1941 show the Soviets lost an average of over seven tanks for every German tank lost. (5) If all German fully tracked AFVs (assault guns, tank destroyers, SP artillery, etc) and losses from Germany’s allies are included in the German figures, then the ratio drops to 6.6 to 1 in the German favour. > Of the total of 20 500 Soviet tanks lost in 1941, approximately 2 300 were T-34s and over 900 were mostly KV heavy tanks.(7) Even if the T-34’s loss ratio was better than seven for every German tank, it was still most likely in the region of four or five to one. Frankly, if 2 300 of any new Wehrmacht tank type had been lost within six months of its first deployment, even with a loss ratio of one to one (let alone 0.2-0.3 to one), then most WWII historians would have described the tank’s combat record as an unmitigated diaster. > > More informed commentaries relating to the T-34’s combat performance in 1941 consider factors such as: the T-34 tank crews had little time to train on their machines, they had major ammunition supply problems, and the support infrastructures were not in place to recover damaged machines. These arguments have a lot more merit than the ‘only small numbers available’ or the ‘committed in small packets’ arguments. There is no doubt that a large proportion of T-34s in 1941 fell victim to operational type losses, especially in the situations the Red Army found itself in during the summer of 1941. Many T-34s had little or no armour piercing ammunition in June 1941, although they did in the months that followed. Many T-34s were abandoned and lost due to breakdown, being bogged down or simply out of fuel. The Red Army’s tank divisions, already short of tractors, had little to no recovery vehicles or even time to recover these tanks. However, even if we assume a staggering 40-50% of T-34s were operational losses (which is probably too high an estimate), then the T-34’s loss ratio in tactical combat is still around two-three to one in the German favour. which really makes me wonder if the effects of an oil shortage might have magnified the Soviets’ shortcomings early in the war. But there’s this: > [@Askance](#): > > The Germans had already lost the war in 1941 by failing to knock out Russia, so whether they capture Baku for a few months in late 1942 or not makes no difference to the outcome. > > On top of that they had trouble supplying their forces in the Caucasus as it was, how they were going to get a significant quantity of oil back to Germany I can’t see. To the first point, there is the pincer operation **Sailboat** describes- the Germans make different choices that lead to the earlier capture/deprivation from the Soviets of the Baku oil (plus the small amount supplying the British coming out of the Middle East). With both belligerents compromised, and considering the serious difficulties both faced as it was, maybe swiping their oil would’ve been the the Axis’ road to victory. Over the Brits and Soviets anyway… To the second point, well, you have a point. But this is a hypothetical involving a different strategic focus for the Axis. And they were _Nazis_. That plays like a joke, no? But then again, these guys were famous for being above-average in ‘frenzy’. I suspect they could have exploited Baku to _some_ degree almost immediately, but you’re making wonder if they could procure a ‘significant quantity’ within, say, six months. and there’s this: > [@LonghornDave](#): > > This is exactly correct. My understanding is that H.L. Hunt alone produced almost as much oil as the entire Axis powers during the war. I have read that 6 billion of the 7 billion barrels of oil used by the Allies during World War II came from the United States. Does that include the Soviets’ oil? If so, maybe Baku wasn’t such great shakes in the first place, and the answer to the hypothetical is, “not much”. Still- Soviet tanks were running out of gas in 1941. If they continued to run out of gas in 1942, 1943, might they have been defeated, or at least forced to compromise? Say, the compromising of the other belligerents leads to U-boats preventing American re-supply of the Allies- could that have even happened? And if so, does even that much threaten to alter the ultimate outcome? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/30 "2011-05-10T05:08:21Z")
One thing that is rarely mentioned in these hypotheticals is Soviet sabotage - they would not have just left the Baku fields operational, they would have destroyed the wells and rigs in a scorched earth policy that would have made ramping up production even more difficult and costly than starting afresh with a new field. For example, on August 9th, 1942 the Germans captured the city of Maikop, one of the most westerly of the Caucaus oil fields, capable of producing approx. 1/10th of the oil that Baku generated. However, Soviet destruction of the fields, supplies, and equipment was so thorough that 5 months later, in January 1943, the Germans were able to wring a mere 70 barrels a day out of a field that produced 15,000 barrels a day just 6 months before. By 1944, the German situation was so desperate that 57% of the 217,000 barrels produced daily by German industry was synthetic. For the duration of the war, Germany had produced 240 million barrels of oil to sustain both its war effort and internal economy. Their efforts were bolstered by Romania, who produced an additional 180 million barrels, nearly all of it going to support the German military. Compare that to American production, which grew from 3.7 million barrels/day in 1940 to 4.7 million barrels/day in 1945. In total, American production during the war was 5.8-6 billion barrels of oil, or _twenty-five times_ German production. The USSR was no slouch either, though it didn’t come close to equaling the Americans: 800 million barrels of oil were produced by the Soviets during the war, most of it in support of the Allies. Hell, even the British produced more oil than Germany and Romania, with 650 million barrels produced, almost all of it in Palestine and in certain Commonwealth territories. So, assuming that the Germans had captured Baku and was able to produce at the same rate as the Soviets, they would have had access to a maximum of 1.2 billion barrels of oil (and that’s assuming every drop produced by the Soviets went to Germany), which was still less than 1/5th of combined US + UK production. Therefore, the numbers strongly suggest that even had the Germans captured Baku, they still would have faced a massive petroleum shortfall compared to the US+UK. Cites: _The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power_, Daniel Yergin, and [Military production during World War II - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II) ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/31 "2011-05-10T06:41:49Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Still- Soviet tanks were running out of gas in 1941. If they continued to run out of gas in 1942, 1943, might they have been defeated, or at least forced to compromise? Say, the compromising of the other belligerents leads to U-boats preventing American re-supply of the Allies- could that have even happened? And if so, does even that much threaten to alter the ultimate outcome? The Soviets weren’t running out of gas in '41, the comment that “Many T-34s were abandoned and lost due to breakdown, being bogged down or simply out of fuel” relates to tanks being abandoned during retreat or encirclement, not a general lack of fuel to supply tanks with. Even if the USSR was somehow deprived of all of its domestic oil Germany could not stop the flow from the US. Historically [Lend-Lease](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease) > [@](#): > > Delivery was via the Arctic Convoys, the Persian Corridor, and the Pacific Route. **The Pacific Route was used for about half of Lend-Lease aid: by convoy from the US west coast to the Soviet Far East, via Vladivostok and the Trans-Siberian railway.** [18] After America’s entry in the war, only Soviet (or Soviet-flagged) ships were used, and there was some interference by Japan with them. Bolding mine. There was nothing Germany could do to stop the Pacific Route even if Murmansk and Persia were lost. The obvious solution would be for Japan to attack the USSR, but that opens another whole can of worms of why Japan attacking the USSR instead of the US/UK/Dutch wasn’t a feasible possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/32 "2011-05-10T06:53:40Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The obvious solution would be for Japan to attack the USSR, but that opens another whole can of worms of why Japan attacking the USSR instead of the US/UK/Dutch wasn’t a feasible possibility. It isn’t a party until everyone has opened a can of worms… ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/33 "2011-05-10T08:57:44Z")
the german war machine was basically lacking all essential raw material to wage war longer than 3 years. to have all the oil they needed would have resulted to just an excess capacity on one aspect. by 1943, they were already lacking in steel, copper and lead. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Rigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@James\_Rigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James_Rigby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/34 "2011-05-11T00:01:55Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Oil hadn’t yet been discovered in the Middle East, so I doubt that would have happened. Not so. Oil was discovered in Iran in 1908, and in Iraq in 1912. Both countries were substantial oil exporters by the 1930s. The British North African campaign in WW2 was fuelled by Iranian oil. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/35 "2011-05-11T03:40:27Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > the german war machine was basically lacking all essential raw material to wage war longer than 3 years. to have all the oil they needed would have resulted to just an excess capacity on one aspect. by 1943, they were already lacking in steel, copper and lead. Yeah ok, but what if the Axis controlled the oil, steel, copper, AND lead? I’m just kidding. > [@JohnT](#): > > One thing that is rarely mentioned in these hypotheticals is Soviet sabotage - they would not have just left the Baku fields operational, they would have destroyed the wells and rigs in a scorched earth policy that would have made ramping up production even more difficult and costly than starting afresh with a new field. That’s right. The Soviets had exactly such a plan ready to go at Baku. From the cite in my OP: > [@](#): > > The German army was approaching Baku. Hitler even fixed the day of the city’s capture – September 25, 1942. Under these conditions the city was preparing for the evacuation. By the autumn of 1942 764 wells were stopped and prepared for destruction and 81 sets of drilling equipment together with the personnel were sent to Turkmenia. I’m probably giving the Germans too much credit for being frenzied maniacs- they would’ve caused more problems for the Russians by capturing Baku, but it doesn’t look like they would’ve gained much. Conquest just isn’t a great way to take control of oil- the faction losing control doesn’t want you to have it and sabotages the infrastructure. But this last bit, along with the other figures you cite (and the weight of everybody else’s arguments) is what is doing it for me: > [@](#): > > Cites: _The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power_, Daniel Yergin, and [Military production during World War II - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II) I hadn’t seen the summary of production for the Axis and Allies presented side by side like that. I did not realize the Axis were so wildly outclassed in nearly every category- I imagined the Axis to have been more competitive (the Americans produced more tanks than the Germans? Who knew?! But I was right that the Axis were sorely short of oil, relatively). I thought a different strategy might have delivered a knockout punch against the Soviets, and that that might have remedied the problem of being outnumbered. Now I seriously doubt it. Now my question is: Why the heck did they even try? Either they didn’t know what they were getting into, or they were stark raving barking mad. Probably a bit of both? ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/36 "2011-05-11T08:52:59Z")
again, they thought they wouldn’t be fighting anyone longer than 3 years. they thought most countries would go much the same way as czechoslovakia, austria and poland. they thought 7 years of stockpiling and that big a headstart in weapons R&D would take care of any adverse scenario that might come. at its height, the nazi war machine out front went “VROOM-VROOM!” but at the rear, it went “CLIP-CLOP, CLIP-CLOP.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/37 "2011-05-11T13:08:23Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > again, they thought they wouldn’t be fighting anyone longer than 3 years. they thought most countries would go much the same way as czechoslovakia, austria and poland. they thought 7 years of stockpiling and that big a headstart in weapons R&D would take care of any adverse scenario that might come. > > at its height, the nazi war machine out front went “VROOM-VROOM!” but at the rear, it went “CLIP-CLOP, CLIP-CLOP.” That’s true. At the start of the Soviet invasion, the German army had 600,000 motor vehicles and 625,000 horses. I don’t _know_, but I seriously doubt the American troops had a 1:1 ratio of vehicles to horses like that. I remember reading a passage with one boy remembering the Americans coming through his town in Italy, and all of them were in motor vehicles, with “nary a horse among them.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/38 "2011-05-11T17:11:05Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Now my question is: Why the heck did they even try? Either they didn’t know what they were getting into, or they were stark raving barking mad. Probably a bit of both? Well, Hitler forgot the one of the most important lessons learned from WW1: Don’t fight the Americans - they’ll just overwhelm your ass with people and production. Reading this reminds me of that joke that went around a few years ago, about what would WW2 be like if it was an online RTS: > [@](#): > > Hitler[AoE]: cool, i start with panzer tanks! > paTTon: lol more like panzy tanks > T0JO: lol > Roosevelt: o this fockin sucks i got a depression! > benny-tow: haha america sux > Stalin: hey hitler you dont fight me i dont fight u, cool? > Hitler[AoE]; sure whatever > Stalin: cool > deGaulle: \*\*\*\* Hitler rushed some1 help > Hitler[AoE]: lol byebye frenchy > Roosevelt: i dont got \*\*\*\* to help, sry > Churchill: wtf the luftwaffle is attacking me > Roosevelt: get antiair guns > Churchill: i cant afford them > benny-tow: u n00bs know what team talk is? > paTTon: stfu > Roosevelt: o yah hit the navajo button guys > deGaulle: eisenhower ur worthless come help me quick > Eisenhower: i cant do \*\*\*\* til rosevelt gives me an army > paTTon: yah hurry the fock up > Churchill: d00d im gettin pounded > deGaulle: this is fockin weak u guys suck > _deGaulle has left the game._ > Roosevelt: im gonna attack the axis k? > benny-tow: with what? ur wheelchair? > benny-tow: lol did u mess up ur legs AND ur head? > Hitler[AoE]: ROFLMAO > T0J0: lol o no america im comin 4 u > Roosevelt: wtf! thats bullsh1t u fags im gunna kick ur asses > T0JO: not without ur harbors u wont! lol > Roosevelt: u little biotch ill get u > Hitler[AoE]: wtf > Hitler[AoE]: america hax, u had depression and now u got a huge fockin army > Hitler[AoE]: thats bullsh1t u hacker > Churchill: lol no more france for u hitler > Hitler[AoE]: tojo help me! > T0J0: wtf u want me to do, im on the other side of the world retard > Hitler[AoE]: fine ill clear you a path > Stalin: WTF u arsshoel! WE HAD A FoCKIN TRUCE [http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military\_jokes\_20057151.asp](http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military_jokes_20057151.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/39 "2011-05-13T02:55:52Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Well, Hitler forgot the one of the most important lessons learned from WW1: Don’t fight the Americans - they’ll just overwhelm your ass with people and production. And the Japanese were fighting a land war in Asia :smack: > [@](#): > > Reading this reminds me of that joke that went around a few years ago, about what would WW2 be like if it was an online RTS: > > [http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military\_jokes\_20057151.asp](http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military_jokes_20057151.asp) Well maybe you’re making fun of me, but in any case it made me LOL 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065/40 "2011-05-13T03:54:12Z")
I’m not making fun of you at all! By “this”, I was referring to the thread, but I can see how I wrote it to be interpreted otherwise. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-wwii-history-what-if-the-axis-controlled-the-oil/581065.md?page=3)