# Alternative facts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 23, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937 "2017-01-23T16:15:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/141 "2017-01-26T20:50:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I get being respectful, but what exactly is paying great homage to the wall supposed to mean? > > I have a visual image of him trying to grab it by the pussy, but other than that, nothing. > [@running\_coach](#): > > I would pay homage by pissing on it. I don’t think this is about the border wall that Trump wants to build, but rather that his speech to the CIA was in front of a remembrance wall dedicated to CIA members who have died in the line of duty. It was a bit controversial to have him speak there after the antagonistic things he’d said about the intelligence community. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/142 "2017-01-26T21:38:47Z")
A trivial aspect of this hullabaloo that annoys me slightly involves references to the novel _1984_ and its apparent recent uptick in sales. I’ve seen one commenter describe the book as “having fallen Into obscurity”, as if this pissant administration had inadvertently rescued it. I find that bizarre, as I’d thought _1984_ was one of the key formative novels of modern Western culture. It was, I believed, required reading in many high schools and universities, and if it had indeed fallen Into obscurity, it suggests Americans are a lot stupider than I had thought and maybe deserving of every Trump they get. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/143 "2017-01-26T22:45:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A trivial aspect of this hullabaloo that annoys me slightly involves references to the novel _1984_ and its apparent recent uptick in sales. I’ve seen one commenter describe the book as “having fallen Into obscurity”, as if this pissant administration had inadvertently rescued it. I find that bizarre, as I’d thought _1984_ was one of the key formative novels of modern Western culture. It was, I believed, required reading in many high schools and universities, and if it had indeed fallen Into obscurity, it suggests Americans are a lot stupider than I had thought and maybe deserving of every Trump they get. It was required reading when I was in high school 25+ years ago. I sure hope it’s still on high school reading lists. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/144 "2017-01-26T22:49:19Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > It was required reading when I was in high school 25+ years ago. I sure hope it’s still on high school reading lists. Me too (45 years ago). I suspect a lot of people haven’t thought about it since high school but suddenly have a renewed interest. This prompted me to launch a Facebook survey to see how many of my friends read it in high school. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/145 "2017-01-26T22:56:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > [Torture works](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/316175-trump-torture-works) Trump publicizes to the world that he wants to reopen secret prisons … D’oh! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/146 "2017-01-26T23:09:38Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > It was required reading when I was in high school 25+ years ago. I sure hope it’s still on high school reading lists. Hate to say it, but I only read it because I knew it was important. It was NOT required reading in my high school. ETA: Mid-to-late nineties ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/147 "2017-01-26T23:18:44Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I would pay homage by pissing on it. That’s pretty much what the Short-Fingered Vulgarian did, considering that it’s a memorial to officers fallen in the line of duty. What next? A rant declaring that his inaugural entertainers were _too_ A-listers delivered from in front of the Eternal Flame at JFK’s grave? A complaint about the news media being big meanie poopyheads to his nominees delivered from the _USS Arizona_ site? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/148 "2017-01-26T23:24:50Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > That’s pretty much what the Short-Fingered Vulgarian did, considering that it’s a memorial to officers fallen in the line of duty. What next? A rant declaring that his inaugural entertainers were _too_ A-listers delivered from in front of the Eternal Flame at JFK’s grave? A complaint about the news media being big meanie poopyheads to his nominees delivered from the _USS Arizona_ site? To be clear, I was referring to the Great Border Boondoggle. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/149 "2017-01-27T01:08:35Z")
Anyway, Mexico says “fuck you”, but Trump’s alternative facts are that the cancellation of the meeting was, like, _totally_ mutual. Perhaps a tally of international fuck-yous to Trump is worth keeping, as well as the alternative fact version of each. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/150 "2017-01-27T01:12:07Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > To be clear, I was referring to the Great Border Boondoggle. OK, that makes more sense. The subthread started with il Doofus declaring that he paid “great homage” to the CIA Memorial Wall before it drifted. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/151 "2017-01-27T08:37:52Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > Hate to say it, but I only read it because I knew it was important. It was NOT required reading in my high school. > > ETA: Mid-to-late nineties We read Animal Farm instead, but 1984 was optional for extra credit. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/152 "2017-01-27T08:54:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A trivial aspect of this hullabaloo that annoys me slightly involves references to the novel _1984_ and its apparent recent uptick in sales. I’ve seen one commenter describe the book as “having fallen Into obscurity”, as if this pissant administration had inadvertently rescued it. I find that bizarre, as I’d thought _1984_ was one of the key formative novels of modern Western culture. It was, I believed, required reading in many high schools and universities, and if it had indeed fallen Into obscurity, it suggests Americans are a lot stupider than I had thought and maybe deserving of every Trump they get. I’m French, but we didn’t have to read it in HS - nor Animal Farm, nor any Orwell. I read ‘em anyway, because I was that kind of kid :p. We did get Malraux’ _Man’s Hope_ and _Lord of the Flies_ though. And Jack’s as good a Trump metaphor as any. “I’m gonna hunt a pig, it’s gonna be the best pig, you’re all gonna have so much pig” “There was a boat, you nonce !” “Wrong. BUT SO MUCH PIG !” ---
**Author:** ![PrimalEnvy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/85f322/32.png) [@PrimalEnvy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrimalEnvy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/153 "2017-01-27T11:15:39Z")
Speaking as someone in a Canadian high school, we’ve barely had any assigned reading. Our grade got left out. Before and after us, Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies. We’ve done nothing but Shakespeare, Antigone and Night. Still, I, and a few others I know, have read 1984 and the rest of those novels. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/154 "2017-01-27T15:27:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A trivial aspect of this hullabaloo that annoys me slightly involves references to the novel _1984_ and its apparent recent uptick in sales. I’ve seen one commenter describe the book as “having fallen Into obscurity”, as if this pissant administration had inadvertently rescued it. I find that bizarre, as I’d thought _1984_ was one of the key formative novels of modern Western culture. It was, I believed, required reading in many high schools and universities, and if it had indeed fallen Into obscurity, it suggests Americans are a lot stupider than I had thought and maybe deserving of every Trump they get. _1984_ was not required reading when I was in high school. Though I didn’t read it until the '80s, my friends and I were familiar with the book’s concepts in the '70s. From our perspective, _1984_ had not fallen into obscurity. I’m still friends with a couple of high school friends. From our perspective, and from the perspectives of other people I know, _1984_ had not fallen into obscurity. But then, the people I hung out with, and the people I interact with today, tend toward intellectualism. We enjoy science fiction, speculative fiction, and other genres that make the reader think about consequences. Many people don’t care, and would rather watch reality TV shows. Does that suggest Americans are stupider now, since they’d rather be entertained than to think? Maybe. It’s disheartening when you show people the rise of historical demagogues and they just don’t see the similarities between them and the rise of our current demagogue. Rather than demonstrate why _their_ demagogue isn’t a demagogue, they reply with, in effect, ‘No! You’re stupid!’ ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/155 "2017-01-27T18:34:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > _1984_ was not required reading when I was in high school. Though I didn’t read it until the '80s, my friends and I were familiar with the book’s concepts in the '70s. From our perspective, _1984_ had not fallen into obscurity. I’m still friends with a couple of high school friends. From our perspective, and from the perspectives of other people I know, _1984_ had not fallen into obscurity. But then, the people I hung out with, and the people I interact with today, tend toward intellectualism. We enjoy science fiction, speculative fiction, and other genres that make the reader think about consequences. Many people don’t care, and would rather watch reality TV shows. > > Does that suggest Americans are stupider now, since they’d rather be entertained than to think? Maybe. It’s disheartening when you show people the rise of historical demagogues and they just don’t see the similarities between them and the rise of our current demagogue. Rather than demonstrate why _their_ demagogue isn’t a demagogue, they reply with, in effect, ‘No! You’re stupid!’ I think you’ll find what’s required reading comes in and out of vogue. At my well regarded public HS in the 80s, we didn’t do any Orwell (though I went on an Orwell kick in Sophomore year), but we did Shakespeare every year, plus I recall The Good Earth, Chernowitz, Lord of the Flies, The Great Gatsby, Greek Mythology, Catcher in the Rye… I’m sure there were others. It would be an interesting study to look and see how political movements steer what is read in school. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/156 "2017-01-27T21:26:24Z")
Our boys are in a good public school and, off the top of my head, have had to read _1984, Animal Farm, The Giver, City of Thieves_ and _Night_. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/157 "2017-01-28T20:09:43Z")
Back in 1980 Jimmy Carter, while running for reelection made this claim: “More Americans are working than ever before.” His opponent, Ronald Reagan, claimed: “More Americans are out of work than ever before.” Which of the seemingly contradictory statements was true? They _both_ were, owing to population increase. These represent “alternate facts”. What this crowd is doing now is just plain bald unvarnished lying. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/158 "2017-01-28T20:42:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It was, I believed, required reading in many high schools and universities, and if it had indeed fallen Into obscurity, it suggests Americans are a lot stupider than I had thought and maybe deserving of every Trump they get. You should never underestimate how stupid most Americans are. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/159 "2017-01-28T21:01:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You should never underestimate how stupid most Americans are. ‘No one in this world, so far as I know, has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.’ - H.L. Mencken ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937/160 "2017-01-28T21:29:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You should never underestimate how stupid most Americans are. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘No one in this world, so far as I know, has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.’ - H.L. Mencken Sad but true, and more evidence piles up every day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-facts/777937.md?page=9)