# Alternative history...what if there were never European/US black slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 18, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980 "2017-08-18T14:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/21 "2017-08-19T19:10:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The South is much less wealthy and populated until mosquito eradication programs in the early 1900s and then it starts catching up with the rest of the country quickly. I don’t think the lack of slavery makes that big of a difference in the south. The slave labor would pretty easily have been replaced by immigrant labor. Realistically, their wages weren’t much more than what was required for survival. If anything, I think slavery was a long term drag on the south’s economy. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/22 "2017-08-19T20:08:16Z")
Your forgetting the effects of the trade winds. The clockwise direction of the Atlantic winds so ships leave Europe, go to Africa, pickup goods in this case slaves), go westward to the Americas, pickup more goods, and then return eat to Europe. Yes, ships can tack. But the trade winds made for an easier and more profitable trade. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/23 "2017-08-19T20:29:06Z")
Before the 18th century there wasn’t a country in the world without slavery and almost nobody actually questioned the morality of it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/24 "2017-08-19T21:21:01Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Without the slave trade, some 40-million descendants now living very comfortably with shiny cars and bling and education and healthcare in America would instead be groveling miserably in malarial poverty in places like Guinea and Sierra Leone. So, by your analysis reparations should be paid the other way?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/25 "2017-08-19T22:52:00Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Before the 18th century there wasn’t a country in the world without slavery and almost nobody actually questioned the morality of it. Lots of people questioned the morality of it. For example, a number of early Christian church councils anathematized Manichaeans for encouraging slaves to desert from their masters. Aristotle defended slavery against people who criticized it, which underscores that it was a matter of debate. My understanding is the Achaemenid Persian Empire relied on non-slave laborers as most of its labour force, etc. though im open to being corrected. Slavery mostly disappeared from western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire and then was brought back in the Crusades when they conquered the Levant and enslaved Muslims. And then it was reintroduced on a larger scale during the early stages of the Age of Empire. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/26 "2017-08-19T23:22:27Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So, by your analysis reparations should be paid the other way?:dubious: I don’t recall using the word “should” in my historical observations. I just pointed out an historical event and an observable later condition, leaving it to my readers to judge whether an unintentional causation was involved. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/27 "2017-08-20T02:03:12Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Without the slave trade, some 40-million descendants now living very comfortably with shiny cars and bling and education and healthcare in America would instead be groveling miserably in malarial poverty in places like Guinea and Sierra Leone. Or perhaps they may have developed those kinds of things on their own. Who knows? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/28 "2017-08-20T02:08:30Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I don’t recall using the word “should” in my historical observations. I just pointed out an historical event and an observable later condition, leaving it to my readers to judge whether an unintentional causation was involved. By that logic, Jews in Israel are richer than they would be in Iraq or Poland, so they should thank Hitler for the holocaust. If you think life in Guinea and Sierra Leone sucks (and I wouldn’t disagree, although it’s interesting you didn’t pick Ghana or the Republic of Congo which furnished a lot of slave population and are more prosperous than other two) how about we solve the problem by increasing our foreign aid budget instead of talking about how slavery might not have been all bad? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/29 "2017-08-22T03:36:11Z")
The linked video rightly points out that sugar\* was the original slave-raised cash crop. Cotton wouldn’t surpass it until after Eli Whitney’s cotton gin. Tobacco was maybe second. And the economics of sugar production was brutal- it literally paid to work the slaves to death and buy new ones. \*at this point in history it would have been brown sugar, molasses and rum. Refined white sugar came later. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/30 "2017-08-22T15:13:26Z")
Nobody is arguing in favor of slavery but to assume that no good came from it on the basis that the idea offends you is crap. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980/31 "2017-08-22T15:23:26Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > By that logic, Jews in Israel are richer than they would be in Iraq or Poland, so they should thank Hitler for the holocaust. > > If you think life in Guinea and Sierra Leone sucks (and I wouldn’t disagree, although it’s interesting you didn’t pick Ghana or the Republic of Congo which furnished a lot of slave population and are more prosperous than other two) how about we solve the problem by increasing our foreign aid budget instead of talking about how slavery might not have been all bad? Did you watch the video? Because, based on your first sentence you didn’t seem to, or understand the concept of alternative history. No one is saying we have anyone to ‘thank’ for the past, it’s merely a look at what might have happened if there was a change in the past causing an alternative time line. Surely you can acknowledge that if there was no black slave trade by the Europeans to the Americas that something might have changed, yes? This has nothing to do with what we should or shouldn’t be giving for foreign aid in Africa today, simply looking at the butterfly effect if such a large change in history happened somehow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternative-history-what-if-there-were-never-european-us-black-slavery/793980.md?page=1)