# Alternatives to Minimum Wage hikes or Government Subsidies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335 "2014-02-26T17:46:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/21 "2014-02-27T00:40:32Z")
Re-training for new jobs. Training is expensive but one’s starting pay is low, being entry-level. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/22 "2014-02-27T00:51:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the long run, not necessarily – some people will quit their 2nd jobs once their 1st pays a decent wage, But those jobs aren’t worth the added pay, and so they disappear for someone who wants it. > [@](#): > > and because low-income workers tend to spend all their money, minimum wage increases can really help the retail economy (as it has the last couple of times the min wage was increased). We’ve been over this before. The increase is so small compared to the overall economy, that it’s in the noise. I don’t believe we could measure the effect of that small an injection of money into a $17T economy. I’m open to being corrected if I’m wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/23 "2014-02-27T00:57:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Fair points, though I’d still argue a direct payment does more for the jobless than such indirect effects of a MW increase do, and faster. I agree. Pay the needy, not the teenagers. This is like the contraception issue: Problem: Some women, much fewer than 50%, cannot afford contraception. Solution: Pay for everyone’s contraception. Problem: Some people making MW cannot support a family. Solution: Raise the MW so that everyone working at the level can support a family. Now, in the MW case, I don’t know that the number is “much fewer than 50%” as it is for contraception, but seems like the proposed “solution” only makes sense if that number is significantly higher than 50%. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/24 "2014-02-27T04:49:03Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > I was thinking you are opposed to a minimum wage, but you actually only said you oppose government subsidies. I’m not really philosophically opposed to either. I started this thread because I was curious if there were any reasonable—or unreasonable, even—alternative ideas. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/25 "2014-02-27T15:32:31Z")
Worker-owned or at least worker-managed enterprises, in both what we currently call the “public” and “private” sectors, would change the situation dramatically, and for the better. I’m referring to everything from autogestion to full-blown anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/26 "2014-02-27T16:14:33Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Worker-owned or at least worker-managed enterprises, in both what we currently call the “public” and “private” sectors, would change the situation dramatically, and for the better. I’m referring to everything from autogestion to full-blown anarchism. If the goal is specifically to help the working poor, it’d be pretty hard to get there without government subsidies. The working poor don’t have much in the way of capital to start a new enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/27 "2014-02-28T17:01:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s look at this again (we’ve probably had at least one of these threads every year since I’ve been a member). > > Making employers pay a “living wage” seems fair, on the surface, as compared to welfare, but let’s explore this idea: > > 1. Who pays for the added cost? I don’t see any reason to think that employers are just going to absorb the cost. They either cut service, cut jobs, automate or raise prices. Maybe they sometimes absorb the costs, but I don’t think it’s reasonable for us to assume they will in most of the cases. So, the costs get absorbed by the consumers. Which is pretty much the same as saying “taxpayers”, except it’s regressive. When we pay for social services through taxes, those taxes are generally progressive. But who spends more of their money at McDonald’s-- rich people or poor people? Except that, unlike taxes, the prices charged by businesses are still driven by the market. Automation is not a silver bullet for businesses facing increased labor costs. Someone has to maintain the machines; someone has to make them; and, of course, the business has to lay out the money to buy them. If they could invest in more automation to cut labor costs, I suspect they’d be doing so now. > [@](#): > > 1. Why should every single job in the country be such that a person doing that job can support a family? Some jobs just aren’t worth that, period. Some jobs are great for teenagers, some are great for 2nd income earners and some are just plain good for entry level folks who are single and childless. I’m not really saying a person should be able to support a family of four on a minimum wage income, but I am saying he should be able to put a roof over his head, food on his table, and clothes on his back, as well as being able pay for the other necessities of civilization (indoor plumbing, electricity, health care, and the like). > [@](#): > > 1. An earned income tax credit is a better way of spreading the cost across society, and keeping track of just how much this social service is costing us. With the MW, we can never know that. But why is it better to spread that cost throughout all of society? Why should we all have to pay higher taxes, essentially because an employer doesn’t want to pay a decent wage. Aren’t we effectively subsidizing artificially low wages with such a system? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/28 "2014-02-28T19:21:46Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Except that, unlike taxes, the prices charged by businesses are still driven by the market. Automation is not a silver bullet for businesses facing increased labor costs. Someone has to maintain the machines; someone has to make them; and, of course, the business has to lay out the money to buy them. If they could invest in more automation to cut labor costs, I suspect they’d be doing so now. Of course they are always looking at ways to automate. But when you raise the cost of labor, you make automation more attractive than it otherwise would be. And automation is only one option the employers have. And yes, prices are market driven, but when everyone’s labor prices increase, one would expect prices of goods to rise. Why would every business owner decide to just absorb this cost increase? Especially if, supposedly, people now have more disposable income. > [@](#): > > I’m not really saying a person should be able to support a family of four on a minimum wage income, but I am saying he should be able to put a roof over his head, food on his table, and clothes on his back, as well as being able pay for the other necessities of civilization (indoor plumbing, electricity, health care, and the like). Why? Why should every single job out there provide that type of wage? > [@](#): > > But why is it better to spread that cost throughout all of society? Why should we all have to pay higher taxes, essentially because an employer doesn’t want to pay a decent wage. Aren’t we effectively subsidizing artificially low wages with such a system? Why is it a subsidy? You are assuming that every job should pay a living wage. I don’t make that assumption, and I don’t see why I should. But the thing is, we have decided, as a society, that we don’t want people to starve. Why shouldn’t we, as a society, pay for that? Besides, as already noted, you’re going to end up paying for it one way or another. It’s just when it comes out of the general fund, you know exactly what you’re paying. When you raise the MW, you don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![bubba001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f17d59/32.png) [@bubba001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba001)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/29 "2014-02-28T23:16:05Z")
I think if the government restricted the number of part time workers at any site to less than 20%, it would force these companies to pay up. I know at the local Home Depot, there is a manager, controller, assistant manager, and one other person. That’s all the full timers. They have nearly 100 part time workers. I know 2, neighbor’s kids, in their 20’s. One has 1 other job, the other has 2 other jobs. All part time. To me, this is abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/30 "2014-02-28T23:22:45Z")
Or, alternatively, remove or modify the regulations that incentivize companies to keep workers below full-time status. ---
**Author:** ![Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/31 "2014-02-28T23:29:44Z")
Do away with wages altogether. Work is something you do because shit’s gotta get done. Access to wealth is something you need to live. There’s no reason to condition the latter upon the former. Each individual is entitled to an equal amount of social wealth simply because he or she exists. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/32 "2014-02-28T23:33:56Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > Do away with wages altogether. > > Work is something you do because shit’s gotta get done. > > Access to wealth is something you need to live. > > There’s no reason to condition the latter upon the former. > > Each individual is entitled to an equal amount of social wealth simply because he or she exists. There is a reason: to ensure that the shit gets done. ETA: Not the only reason, but one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/33 "2014-02-28T23:34:07Z")
> [@bubba001](#): > > I think if the government restricted the number of part time workers at any site to less than 20%, it would force these companies to pay up. I know at the local Home Depot, there is a manager, controller, assistant manager, and one other person. That’s all the full timers. They have nearly 100 part time workers. I know 2, neighbor’s kids, in their 20’s. One has 1 other job, the other has 2 other jobs. All part time. To me, this is abuse. Abuse of what? ---
**Author:** ![Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/34 "2014-03-01T00:00:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There is a reason: to ensure that the shit gets done. > > ETA: Not the only reason, but one. Bad anthropology is not a substitute for a valid argument. Would you care to try again? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/35 "2014-03-01T02:00:06Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > Bad anthropology is not a substitute for a valid argument. Would you care to try again? The value of wages as [incentives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentive) isn’t a reason to tie wages to performing work because…anthropology? ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/36 "2014-03-01T13:15:18Z")
I’m curious. How big is the problem we’re trying to solve? I’ve always thought of minimum wage as a temporary stage most folks start at, but move beyond as skills and experience grow. Honestly, the last time I worked for minimum wage was 1974, and the missus’ story is similar. I canvassed my kids (19, 24) about the MW debate and got almost identical responses: “Who stays at minimum wage?” [paraphrased] Both started at fast-food MW jobs, but within a year had upgraded to more pay. My eldest continued the path and by the third year was a foreman and long since bid farewell to MW. My youngest is still in school, but already advanced a little beyond MW (still part time though). I would’ve guessed they are typical, but maybe not. However, the eldest had to move several times (4 different states, so far), as did we. And that doesn’t appear typical nowadays. That’s how it worked for me, my wife, my kids, and frankly everyone I know; And I’ve assumed it works that way for everyone. Are there really large swaths of people who spend their careers at minimum wage? I figure career MW earners are fairly rare, so I’ve never really worried about the issue much (raise it, or don’t raise it; most people aren’t there long so it doesn’t matter that much anyway). As for alternatives, I’d like to try substantial gov’t assistance with moving expenses, so people who are in a bind can easily get to where there are better paying jobs. My $0.02. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/37 "2014-03-01T14:52:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If the goal is specifically to help the working poor, it’d be pretty hard to get there without government subsidies. The working poor don’t have much in the way of capital to start a new enterprise. I was thinking the workers would take over the enterprises that already exist, firing the bosses. You don’t need the boss, but the boss needs you. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/38 "2014-03-01T14:53:38Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > I’m curious. How big is the problem we’re trying to solve? I’ve always thought of minimum wage as a temporary stage most folks start at, but move beyond as skills and experience grow. > > Honestly, the last time I worked for minimum wage was 1974, and the missus’ story is similar. I canvassed my kids (19, 24) about the MW debate and got almost identical responses: “Who stays at minimum wage?” [paraphrased] Both started at fast-food MW jobs, but within a year had upgraded to more pay. My eldest continued the path and by the third year was a foreman and long since bid farewell to MW. My youngest is still in school, but already advanced a little beyond MW (still part time though). I would’ve guessed they are typical, but maybe not. However, the eldest had to move several times (4 different states, so far), as did we. And that doesn’t appear typical nowadays. > > That’s how it worked for me, my wife, my kids, and frankly everyone I know; And I’ve assumed it works that way for everyone. Are there really large swaths of people who spend their careers at minimum wage? I figure career MW earners are fairly rare, so I’ve never really worried about the issue much (raise it, or don’t raise it; most people aren’t there long so it doesn’t matter that much anyway). > As for alternatives, I’d like to try substantial gov’t assistance with moving expenses, so people who are in a bind can easily get to where there are better paying jobs. My $0.02. Most fast-food and other low-wage service workers these days, who are mostly making above MW but below a living wage, are adults, often with dependents. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/39 "2014-03-01T15:09:08Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I was thinking the workers would take over the enterprises that already exist, firing the bosses. Oh, so just massive theft, then. I see. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > You don’t need the boss, but the boss needs you. That’s not at all true. Management is a skill, not a noble title, and for a firm to be well-run, it needs people with that skill just as much as it needs people with the skills to manufacture the firm’s products, market them, distribute them, clean the bathrooms, and etc. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335/40 "2014-03-01T15:18:19Z")
[About half of minimum wage earners are 25 years old or older.](http://www.usforacle.com/higher-minimum-wage-for-older-demographic-1.2857969#.UxH4eoW7TIU) Here’s an alternative: Mandatory birth control for people making minimum wage or less. A single person can do alright on $7.25/hr. A person with children cannot. This is a horrible idea. But it would in fact lift people out of poverty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternatives-to-minimum-wage-hikes-or-government-subsidies/682335.md?page=3)