# altitude for 18 mph? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 15, 2003, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094 "2003-12-15T11:02:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KenGr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecc23a/32.png) [@KenGr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KenGr)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/21 "2003-12-19T01:02:48Z")
As a part time Michigan resident, I would guess that netscape’s neighbors are very, very fortunate for the local township ordinances. I sure wouldn’t want to wake up and find an unexpected 200 foot windmill on my horizon. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/22 "2003-12-19T01:46:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Or you could get off your duff, run for local office, and work to change the laws. > > Personally, I think it would be hugely cheaper just to mega-insulate your home and hot-water tank, replace your current appliances with more efficient models, replace incandescent lights with flourescents or LEDs, replace single-pane windows with double-pane and do other things to generally reduce your consumption. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if $2000 or so spent on home renovations cut your energy consumption by half, plus you might look into getting a tax credit. \*\* You know what your right. I had rejected running for office becouse I did not think I would win. Mainly becouse only older people seems to get elected and I am only 20. Maybe I will run, at the very least I’ll know I tried. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/23 "2003-12-19T01:56:10Z")
dang hit post instead of preview. anyhow I would like to add my house is getting some energy saving upgrades in the future. I am hoping to get it’s ussage below 500kw a month. otherwise the turbine setup would not produce enough to cover the usage (assuming I can still pull this project along). **LSLGuy** good point. I’ll start a record of the wind for each day. **KenGr** The fastest windspeed I remember here was 70Mph gusts. The turbine I want to use should be able to take 120 mph winds. I am still shopping around for the tower. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/24 "2003-12-19T01:59:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KenGr \* > \*\*As a part time Michigan resident, I would guess that netscape’s neighbors are very, very fortunate for the local township ordinances. I sure wouldn’t want to wake up and find an unexpected 200 foot windmill on my horizon. \*\* and a 300 foot cellular tower looks so much better. are you against cellular phones also? anyway come next election maybe the ordinances will change. ---
**Author:** ![KenGr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecc23a/32.png) [@KenGr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KenGr)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/25 "2003-12-19T07:45:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by netscape 6 \* > \*\*and a 300 foot cellular tower looks so much better. are you against cellular phones also? anyway come next election maybe the ordinances will change. \*\* As a matter of fact, I am (against the towers anyway). Around here there is so much negative feeling about them they are usually placed on existing structures, inside existing structures or otherwise disguised. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/26 "2003-12-19T08:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KenGr \* > \*\*As a matter of fact, I am (against the towers anyway). Around here there is so much negative feeling about them they are usually placed on existing structures, inside existing structures or otherwise disguised. \*\* I see. Well around here, people are more open to towers. About the only one that got a large amount of people upset (including me) was when the cellular tower was put and they left the daytime blinker on at night. Very bright light. It was like someone was taking your picture through the window every few seconds. It took them three weeks to fix it so the much dimmer night time blinker came on at at night and did not ruin anyone’s sleep. Anyhow most people around here don’t seem bothered by them. Well as long as you don’t move to around here you should be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/27 "2003-12-19T09:18:39Z")
Why not just pick up a [Mr Fusion](http://www.bttf.com/backtalk/bike2.jpg) unit? That way, you won’t need flux capacitor, either. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/28 "2003-12-19T21:18:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by netscape 6 \* > \*\*You know what your right. I had rejected running for office becouse I did not think I would win. Mainly becouse only older people seems to get elected and I am only 20. Maybe I will run, at the very least I’ll know I tried. \*\* You know, my _real_ point was that you could spend far less money making your home more efficient than you would erecting a tower. If you can identify the ten biggest wastes of electricity in your home and eliminate/replace/insulate them, I’ll wager your Evil bill will drop significantly. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/29 "2003-12-19T21:36:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KenGr \* > \*\*I’ve just got to ask: Have you looked at the cost of building a 200 foot tower that will support a large capacity windmill and withstand the maximum predicted storm wind loadings for your area? Plus the cost of erecting it? My guess is we’re talking big big money here. This is not your run of the mill TV antenna tower. \*\* Exactly. The cost of erecting a 200-foot tower capable of withstanding 90+ mph wind gusts, along with the attendant costs of a modern turbine power-generating system and electrical relays (yadda yadda yadda) would be cost prohibitive, possibly running into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. We’re not talking a spindly radio antenna. This 20-story wind-harnessing tower would require massive reinforcement, generate more noise than you’d care to hear at night, and would probably take 20-40 years just to recoup your initial investment. (Don’t plan on moving.) Erected in the wrong location, the whole damned contraption might end up a monumental engineering joke that makes you the punchline in Jay Leno’s monologue. In short, this isn’t a Harry Homeowner weekend project. Think green. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/30 "2003-12-20T05:53:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*You know, my _real_ point was that you could spend far less money making your home more efficient than you would erecting a tower. If you can identify the ten biggest wastes of electricity in your home and eliminate/replace/insulate them, I’ll wager your Evil bill will drop significantly. \*\* yeah I know, in the post after that reply I mentioned I had some energy saving upgrades in planned. However there are a few laws that bug me anyway. Appearntly putting a coach on your front porch is crime:confused:. I don’t think the goverment has any right to tell me or any other grown adult what kind of furniture I or they can have on my or their porch. Thats going to be my platform. A list of laws that I disagree with. Seems the honest way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/31 "2003-12-20T06:42:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Carnac the Magnificent! \* > \*\*Exactly. The cost of erecting a 200-foot tower capable of withstanding 90+ mph wind gusts, along with the attendant costs of a modern turbine power-generating system and electrical relays (yadda yadda yadda) would be cost prohibitive, possibly running into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. > > We’re not talking a spindly radio antenna. This 20-story wind-harnessing tower would require massive reinforcement, generate more noise than you’d care to hear at night, and would probably take 20-40 years just to recoup your initial investment. (Don’t plan on moving.) Erected in the wrong location, the whole damned contraption might end up a monumental engineering joke that makes you the punchline in Jay Leno’s monologue. > > In short, this isn’t a Harry Homeowner weekend project. Think green. \*\* the tower it’s self does not have to be 200 feet. I live on a hill around 100 feet tall. the tower it’s self would only have to be 100 feet. towers like that cost under $1,500. here is one for example [http://www.altenergystore.com/cart/847.html?VMH67iuG;](http://www.altenergystore.com/cart/847.html?VMH67iuG;) it does not work with the turbine I wanted to use but it makes a good example. I’m thinking this project might be doomed anyway. I checked into some local wind records **LSLGuy** was right the wind dies down for days at a time, and then picks up to some speedy winds for a few days to keep the averages up. The averages are useless for wind home electrcity generation around here. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/32 "2003-12-20T16:32:16Z")
N6, You said “The averages are useless for wind home electrcity generation around here.” Nope. Averages are useless for everything everywhere at all times.\* They are truly one of mankind’s least useful inventions. Unfortunately, a lot of innumerate folks have bought into the idea that an average tells them a lot more than it really does. In reality, and especially in engineering, they’re worse than useless. Good luck with your energy-efficiency modifications. That’s definitely the cost- and effort-effective way to proceed. LSLGuy \*Slight exaggeration for effect, but only slight. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/33 "2003-12-20T18:29:04Z")
[Other Power](http://www.otherpower.com/) is a good site for looking up ways to seperate yourself from the grid. The most cost effective approach for living off the grid appears to be an old engine driving an alternator which recharges a bank of batteries. The main expense lies in the batteries but I imagine that scrounging around junk yard would eventually produce enough to make it cheap. The economics of this are tricky since the power company is going to be able to produce electricity cheaper than a single person ever will simply because of economies of scale. This doesn’t include the fact that when your power line goes down, the power company comes out and fixes it while if your gear dies, you don’t have power until you fix it, big difference there. ---
**Author:** ![EvilGhandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@EvilGhandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilGhandi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/34 "2003-12-20T22:59:07Z")
The feasability, practicality etc of such a project is moot. You are going to require a building permity to erect any permanant structure on your property and face it, it aint gonna happen. Even if you manage to get a permit and approval for such a structure you can count on no fewer than 5 lawsuits from your abutting properties. Last year my customers were (succesfully) sued for ; Painting their driveway (wrong shade of grey) Chainlink fence (eyesore) Installing a rock garden (not keeping with the “feel” of the neighborhood) All of these projects were within code and had the required permits. All of them had to be removed. (I did give them a break on the price for demolition) Feel free to draw your own conclusions from my experience. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/35 "2003-12-20T23:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EvilGhandi \* > \*\*The feasability, practicality etc of such a project is moot. > > You are going to require a building permity to erect any permanant structure on your property and face it, it aint gonna happen. > > Even if you manage to get a permit and approval for such a structure you can count on no fewer than 5 lawsuits from your abutting properties. > > Last year my customers were (succesfully) sued for ; Painting their driveway (wrong shade of grey) Chainlink fence (eyesore) Installing a rock garden (not keeping with the “feel” of the neighborhood) > > All of these projects were within code and had the required permits. All of them had to be removed. (I did give them a break on the price for demolition) > > Feel free to draw your own conclusions from my experience. \*\* Not everyone lives in the 'burbs with a bunch of stick-up-their-ass neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/36 "2003-12-20T23:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LSLGuy \* > \*\* > Good luck with your energy-efficiency modifications. That’s definitely the cost- and effort-effective way to proceed. > > LSLGuy > \*\* Thank you. I already have plane to cut air condintioner usage in the summer. I’m just gonning to pump up the cold air from the basement to the up stairs. Th basements is cool with out air condintioning even on the hottest days. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Long Road \* > **[Other Power](http://www.otherpower.com/) is a good site for looking up ways to seperate yourself from the grid.** the plans for a homemade turbine on the site look very promising both in power and cost. Thank you for that link. **EvilGhandi** that sounds like an awfull area to live in. based on some of the non-standard construction partices I have seen people near me use the windmill which will now be for fuel making is small potatoes. ---
**Author:** ![EvilGhandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@EvilGhandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilGhandi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/37 "2003-12-21T06:19:43Z")
Netscape, your area sounds like absolute heaven to me. I can’t count on both hands the times I just wanted to say fukkit and go work at burger king this year. The “associations” seem to be present in ALL neighborhoods now. Even in non-association areas, someone is going to be offended, and dammit they sue. For the record the “area” I live is the State of Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/38 "2003-12-21T08:42:12Z")
Sounds like a royal pain in the ass to have people around like that. When we lived in the country, it was a joy being able to do pretty much as we pleased. Want to walk outside and fire your rifle 100 times into a tree stump? No problem. We used to have huge fires after clearing the woods out. Nothing like JD and a raging fire to get you in a festive mood. Now if I can only convince the wife to move back… ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094/39 "2003-12-22T00:57:30Z")
Hawaii? Man talk about the grass seeming greenier (well this time of year it actually is), I think I can deal with the the cold. If I ever moved to Hawaii the torrent of law suits that would happen when I put up the dog fence around my yard. Utility fence, cheap and not much to look at, but it keeps the dog in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/altitude-for-18-mph/219094.md?page=1)