# "Always a woman" - most passive-aggressive swipe against women ever or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200 "2013-11-18T19:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/1 "2013-11-18T19:51:00Z")
Here’s a link to the lyrics: [Always a Woman](http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/She's-Always-A-Woman-lyrics-Billy-Joel/98F5BA02E8B085A548256870001B6C6D) In particular I refer to the following lines: \*She can ruin your faith with her casual lies… She hides like a child… She can ask for the truth But she’ll never believe you Yeah, she steals like a thief… Then she’ll carelessly cut you And laugh while you’re bleedin’ \* I mean, what the fuck? If anyone treated me like this I’d divorce them. That’s a hell of a lot of disrespect. The song sounds like he respects and even admires her for these traits, but these are some awful traits to have. So - what gives? Was he just going through a really bad breakup? Is this supposed to be a love song? I don’t know and it’s been bothering me for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/2 "2013-11-18T19:55:02Z")
I’ve read interpretations that Billy Joel is singing about his muse. It’s either that or believe he’s a right old bastard. I’m fine with either one… not a big fan of Joel myself. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/3 "2013-11-18T19:58:36Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > The song sounds like he respects and even admires her for these traits, but these are some awful traits to have. I saw it more as him being captivated by her despite her terrible traits, not because of them. She does all these bad things but he’s still enraptured by her as some idealized woman. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/4 "2013-11-18T20:08:26Z")
The song is about Billy Joel’s then wife, they divorced in 1982. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/5 "2013-11-18T20:23:10Z")
Well, you see, when a man loves a woman, she can bring him such misery. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/6 "2013-11-18T20:31:49Z")
From Wiki: “The song was released in 1977, following several other hits from The Stranger including “Just the Way You Are”, “Movin’ Out (Anthony’s Song)” and “Only the Good Die Young”. Musically, Joel has said that he was influenced by Gordon Lightfoot and his mellow acoustic guitar ballads. It is a love song that Joel wrote for his then wife, Elizabeth. Elizabeth had taken over management of Joel’s career, and was able to put his financial affairs in order after Joel had signed some bad deals and contracts. She was a tough and savvy negotiator who could “wound with her eyes” or “steal like a thief”, but would “never give in”. Because of her tough-as-nails negotiating style, many business adversaries thought she was “unfeminine,” but to Joel, she was always a woman. The two eventually divorced in 1982.” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/7 "2013-11-18T20:58:30Z")
The song is 36 years old, and you’re upset about it now? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/8 "2013-11-18T21:05:56Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > From Wiki: > “The song was released in 1977, following several other hits from The Stranger including “Just the Way You Are”, “Movin’ Out (Anthony’s Song)” and “Only the Good Die Young”. Musically, Joel has said that he was influenced by Gordon Lightfoot and his mellow acoustic guitar ballads. It is a love song that Joel wrote for his then wife, Elizabeth. Elizabeth had taken over management of Joel’s career, and was able to put his financial affairs in order after Joel had signed some bad deals and contracts. She was a tough and savvy negotiator who could “wound with her eyes” or “steal like a thief”, but would “never give in”. Because of her tough-as-nails negotiating style, many business adversaries thought she was “unfeminine,” but to Joel, she was always a woman. The two eventually divorced in 1982.” That’s essentially the explanation I always heard. Elizabeth Joel was Billy’s agent at the time. She was a hard-nosed, cutthroat businesswoman, and from time to time, record executives who’d been through gruelling meetings with Elizabeth would say something like, “Geez, Billy, I feel sorry for you, being married to such a bitch.” The song is saying to them, “You don’t understand- she’s not like that with me. In the business world, she’s a shark, but when she’s home alone with me, she’s a very different person- with me, she’s sweet and feminine. You just don’t see that side of her at work.” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/9 "2013-11-18T21:08:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > That’s essentially the explanation I always heard. Elizabeth Joel was Billy’s agent at the time. She was a hard-nosed, cutthroat businesswoman, and from time to time, record executives who’d been through gruelling meetings with Elizabeth would say something like, “Geez, Billy, I feel sorry for you, being married to such a bitch.” > > The song is saying to them, “You don’t understand- she’s not like that with me. In the business world, she’s a shark, but when she’s home alone with me, she’s a very different person- with me, she’s sweet and feminine. You just don’t see that side of her at work.” Interesting. Sounds rather sexist - I mean the executives. What do you call a hard-nosed, cutthroat businessman? Prudent! ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/10 "2013-11-18T21:16:22Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Interesting. Sounds rather sexist - I mean the executives. What do you call a hard-nosed, cutthroat businessman? Prudent! Of course it’s sexist. It was also the 1970s. We were (and hopefully still are) evolving. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/11 "2013-11-18T21:22:50Z")
Some of Bob Dylan’s songs (It Ain’t Me Babe; Like A Rolling Stone; Sign On The Window) seem to me to be similarly condescending and critical, although I guess he’s addressing a specific woman and not necessarily women in general. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/12 "2013-11-18T21:34:29Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Of course it’s sexist. It was also the 1970s. Exactly. There is a real cultural gulf between then and now, at least in terms of celebrating _open_ sexism. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/13 "2013-11-18T21:42:43Z")
[I feel the same way about this song.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UX2afsTqFI) She doesn’t know me. It objectifies men. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/14 "2013-11-19T15:54:36Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Exactly. There is a real cultural gulf between then and now, at least in terms of celebrating _open_ sexism. Oh, I agree, although I also submit we have a long way to go! But at least this answers a question I’ve had about this song for ages and ages. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/15 "2013-11-19T16:14:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Some of Bob Dylan’s songs (It Ain’t Me Babe; Like A Rolling Stone; Sign On The Window) seem to me to be similarly condescending and critical, although I guess he’s addressing a specific woman and not necessarily women in general. Many of Dylan’s songs about former loves ARE negative and critical, but that doesn’t necessarily make them sexist. “It Ain’t Me, Babe” is about a woman who’s too needy and clingy. There ARE such people, both male and female, and it’s probably wise for anyone who gets involved with such a person to say, “I’m out of here- I’m never going to live up to your fantasies, and I’ll never make you happy.” “Like a Rolling Stone” certainly paints a negative portrait of a particular TYPE of girl, but again, that doesn’t make it sexist. In the Sixties, there were a lot of rich, sheltered, pampered kids of BOTH genders who “dropped out” and joined the counterculture. Dylan knew many such kids, and found them slightly ridiculous. He was telling them, “Hey kid, you left your nice, comfortable, white bread life to become a Bohemian in Greenwich Village, but now you see that you don’t belong belong here either. You don’t really fit in ANYWHERE, do you?” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/16 "2013-11-19T17:11:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The song is 36 years old, and you’re upset about it now? :dubious: Women sure can hold a grudge, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/17 "2013-11-19T17:53:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, you see, when a man loves a woman, she can bring him such misery. How dare you put her down! That’s the last straw. I’m turning my back on you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/18 "2013-11-19T22:54:29Z")
> [@](#): > > **“Always a woman” - most passive-aggressive swipe against women ever or what?** Weird Al Yankovic’s [You Don’t Love Me Anymore](http://www.lyricsdepot.com/weird-al-yankovic/you-dont-love-me-anymore.html) seems to be in the running. 😃 > [@](#): > > You know, I even think it’s kinda cute the way > You poison my coffee just a little each day > I still remember the way that you laughed > When you pushed me down that elevator shaft > > Oh, if you don’t mind me asking, what’s this poisonous cobra > Doing in my underwear drawer? > Sometimes I get to thinking you don’t love me any more ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/19 "2013-11-20T15:47:21Z")
Actually, the line that bothers me about “always a woman” is > [@](#): > > She can’t be convicted > She’s earned her degree I’ve got a bunch of degrees, but I’m sure that if the evidence was against me, _I_’d be convicted. Maybe it only works for women. Sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200/20 "2013-11-20T17:56:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The song is 36 years old, and you’re upset about it now? :dubious: It’s never too late to get all butthurt about something. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/always-a-woman-most-passive-aggressive-swipe-against-women-ever-or-what/674200.md?page=2)