Am Amurikans dumbererer

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
21

That another factor in the ignorance/cross-cultural knowledge differential is skewed by things like the Bretton Woods accords and WWII that rendered the US Dollar the effective Gold Standard currency for the world, and a portion of Allied WWII cleanup to a US sphere of influence, respectively? Not to mention our prior status as the Capitalist Superpower, that Western Europe sided with against the USSR, and our expanion of our sphere of influence after Britain essentially ceded to us in the Middle East?

Surely it sounds like confirmation of American arrogance – which understandably is subsequently translated as ignorance – to say they know more about us than we do about them because they’ve had many more reasons to know about us, but to a limited extent I’d say it’s just the simple truth.

22

I lived in Germany for a year, about 20 years ago, and I must say at first I had the impression that Europeans were more knowledgeable about the world (which is not in any way the same as intelligent), in particular geography. After awhile, though, I realized that almost everyone I knew was either a University student or professor (I was there for a year of college). Once I started to be acquainted with some everyday folks I realized they’re not all as informed as we like to think. My most startling example of this was a woman in Scotland, who when I mentioned I was from Dallas commented “my granddaughter went somewhere in Dallas. I think it was Dakota…”

And as far as language, my ex-husband’s grandparents grew up fully bilingual in English & German in the early 1900’s in a small town in Texas, 3rd generation Americans. His mother (born in 1930-something) remembers church services being held in German when she was a little girl; she never learned to speak it but could follow a conversation fairly well. And they all recall in the mid-1900’s that even in a town as big as San Antonio it was common for casual conversations with strangers to include English, German and Spanish all mixed together. I think when people make a resentful comment about “why should I have to learn their language” what they are actually referring to is the fact that when they call customer service they have to press 1 to get a menu in English, or voting ballots are bilingual, that sort of thing.

23

Exactly, and oddly, I know a little Spanish for very similar reasons.

Europeans are ignorant about the USA in odd ways. We had two come visit my workplace, staying for a week, Now, they knew Disneyland was also in California, so they actually thought they could just drive over after work for a quick visit! (I am in the San Jose SF/bay area, it’s a good 6 hours+ drive if there is no traffic)

24

You cannot believe the crap I’ve seen on German television.

Ed

25

Why do Europeans think they’re smarter than Americans? Because they’ve ALWAYS looked down on us. At least that’s what Andrei Markovits argued in Uncouth Nation. The European elite has a long history of looking down their noses at America. Lately, as the nations of Europe continue to unify into a common European community, it’s become fashionable and even beneficial for leaders to show how “not American” they are. The book gives many examples of the “damned if we do, damned if we don’t” treatment America gets from Europe.

As for being ignorant of others, Europeans LOVE to throw out that old chestnut because they can’t get over the fact that we our generally pretty ambivalent about Europe, which of course is unacceptable because, after all, it’s EUROPE, where all the culture and history and anything that ever meant anything comes from. HOW DARE Americans not take the time to educate themselves on the vitally important day-to-day happenings of Europe (especially the UK, France, and Germany, where the MOST important stuff is happening). The United States itself began as and still represents a rejection of Europe, and that irritates members of certain circles. Well, I may not know who’s in charge of Belgium or the biggest news stories in France, but I’d like to see the average German tell me something about Mexico, Australia, India, or any place that’s not Europe.

Frankly, I’m not sure why Cecil felt the need to pander to the prevailing stereotypical view of Americans as “greedy, smug, and self-centered.” It doesn’t matter how generous, friendly, or aware we are or become, Europe will find something bad to say about us.

26

Absolutely. Bilingual education is a farce and it screws the kids royally. Any child who shows up at a public school and can’t speak English should be placed for one semester in a total English immersion course. That’s all they do, all day long - learn to speak, read and write English. After that, they go into regular classes.

27

Correct, we found out here in CA that Bilingual education actually hampers the learning, but it does provide nifty jobs for a few that support it.:rolleyes:

28

I have seen immersion work at our little school. We had several children who started out in preschool speaking no English at all (two spoke Russian, another Chinese, I think). Obviously, neither of our teachers spoke Russian or Chinese. Within the school year, all three kids were speaking English quite well. Seems to have worked.

I’m sure it would have been a bit easier some days to have had someone bilingual in the classroom, but it all worked out.

29

But aren’t you looking down your nose at them by putting it that way? Look how we sneer at Europeans as “surrender monkeys” and “socialists” and would never wat to adopt anything that’s “european style”.

And as for “elites”, well we’ve been hearing a lot about “elites” in this country and howe evil it is to be smart. But I think the question is how many non-elites are there in the US compared to the number of non-elites in Europe.

30

I was surprised that the original question was posed because a writer was explaining to a primarily American audience what the Euro symbol identified.

How often would your average European (if there is such a thing) think your average American interacts with Euros (the currency) anyway? It’s an aspect of European life most of us rarely deal with outside of news articles about Europe. I still have never seen a Euro note in real life, although I have seen pictures of the designs online.

It would be like me expecting a German to know how many feet in a mile, or what sport the Pittsburgh Pirates play.

31

The British also are often chided in Europe for being stubbornly monolingual, but we are so for exactly the same reason as the Americans. We have no need to learn a second language as English is practically a lingua franca around the globe.

This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t learn another language, and I don’t deny the real benefits. Just that it isn’t as important as it would be for the French, Russians, Chinese, etc to learn English.

32

Another factor not addressed in the article, or in the thread, is number of countries involved. Europe is not a single country like the United States is. If we are comparing general knowledge such as the heads of state, Americans are at an instant disadvantage. There is only one POTUS, but every country in Europe has a President, Prime Minister, or both.

On the language issue, I noticed that everyone I met while in the Netherlands spoke some English, in addition to Dutch, French, and German. One I asked about it, the reason was that the only good television in the country was the BBC. I wonder how much of the knowledge that Europeans have about America comes from our entertainment exports, and not from careful perusal of the NYT.

Jonathan

33

A friend/co-worker is a descendant of Chinese laborers who came over when the transcontinental railroads and their spur lines were being built (1860s/1870s). His ancestors later settled in Chinatown in San Francisco. This guy’s grandparents, who were at least the grandchildren if not the great-grandchildren of the immigrants, still spoke a Chinese dialect in the home; he said his grandfather was fluent in English, he just preferred Chinese, and his grandmother could only speak enough English to get a point across.

There were communities in Alabama (mostly in the Cullman area in the sorta central northwest of the state) where German was still spoken in the homes- something like the Amish speak it- a century after the immigrant ancestors came. Most people there could in fact speak perfect English as well, but they did so with a slight accent and had their own language when dealing with outsiders who they didn’t want to understand them.

Off topic a bit, but I’ve known (not well obviously) a couple of French Canadians over the years- one about my age (40s) and another 10 years or so younger- who barely spoke English. Is this very common? (I assumed they’d all be bilingual.)

34

I’ve visited Montreal and Quebec City, and outside the tourist areas it’s not hard to find people who speak little or no English. (It’s also easy to find people who are fully fluent in both English and French).

35

Do you have a cite for that? I’d like to have some good research on my side when I argue that today’s immigrants are no different from previous ones in that regard.

36

This is an interesting thread, and to my mind a somewhat enlightening one. I’m Scottish and it is depressingly common for Scots to compare themselves with the English in the way that some of the American respondents here have done wrt Europeans. It’s a cultural cringe borne of, well, what? There really is no need for it these days.

37

The comments in this thread seem to have largely missed the point in my inestimable opinion.

The question was about intelligence, not about does speaking a different language or knowing a bunch of obscure facts make you cooler.

I know that intelligence is difficult to quantify and that’s because it’s hard to define. So I’ll define it - it’s my post it’s my rules (praise be to George Carlin).

To me intelligence comprises: mental flexibility, ability acquire and retain information, ability to integrate - not merely absorb - information, and thinking beyond the first step.

Both empirical and anecdotal evidence show that learning multiple languages causes a host of new connections inside the brain. I’m not a neuro-anything but it seems to me that more connections can only hope to bolster intelligence as I’ve defined it.

Further I’ve read numerous times that language is a worldview or “mental-map” that colours your perceptions etc. The more maps you have the more you have conceptual access to. Again this can’t be bad for the amount of information (in this case more conceptual than concrete) to be integrated.

Exposure to different cultures also adds to this information. A first-hand knowledge - even cursory - of Spanish, Dutch, and Greek cultures (I pulled those three from my ass, substitute any you like) can’t help but add to your available data.

As to general knowledge I’d have to - based on pure supposition - give the

Exposure to different cultures also adds to this information. A first-hand knowledge - even cursory - of Spanish, Dutch, and Greek cultures (I pulled those three from my ass, substitute any you like) can’t help but add to your available data.

As far as history goes since so much of it happened in/because of Europe I’d have to give the edge to Europeans just because they lived it and, in modern times, often some member of the family remembers either the event or tales of the event from those who lived it. The latter is subject to regionalization).

Based on what I’m told American schools consistently rank in the lower chunk of industrialized nations. Better schools seems to suggest more access to better information. I know this last statement is open to whacks of arguement and I’ll stipulate most of them.

Do Europeans beat Americans (and Canadians) I’d guess yes. But all of this is merely access to and potential retention of information.

To me the key is flexibility and integration. What can you do with all you’ve learned both “factual” and experiential?

Some of the most intelligent people that I know couldn’t tell you when D-Day and few could tell you why it mattered. If you want to know the dates and importance of historical battles these are, for the most part, not your people.

If on the other hand you need something actually done and need to know how to do it many of these troglydites are pure geniuses. I’ve known many academics (my Dad’s a prof I grew up around these people) who couldn’t bore assholes in wooden hobby horses - praise be to Dorothy Parker.

These people know what is relevant to them and they know it well. I know an unlicensed welder (means he doesn’t get Journeyman pay) that regularly engineers and designs stuff for our company. He’s brilliant.

That same welder couldn’t tell you if the Magna Carta was signed in England or Hollywoood.

“The ability to see and know and do” is the nutshell of my define of intelligence and in that respect I don’t think there is a “smarter” people. In any population you will have: the utter morons, the slavering horde, and the shining few.

In New York the smartest Calahari Bushman is dumber than a newborn. Drop your average Nobel Prize winning physicist into the Calahari and see how smart he looks.

Intelligence is what you do with what you have and I’d guess that per capita the global levels of intelligence (as I’ve defined it) are roughly the same: a few really dumb, most not so dumb, some kinda smart, and a few really smart.

38

The idea that Americans never learn other languages is ridiculous. Everyone I’ve ever known stuided at least one. But then, they… never had a chance to use it again.

I mean, outside of maybe Spanish now and then, when are we going to use other languages? The nearest country which uses another language is Mexico or maybe a tiny caribbean island. Which you may visit on vacation. Once. And where they will happily speak English to you because they talk to English-speakers all the time.

If you live in France, you can choose between English, German, Dutch, Italian, or Spanish and hve a good chance of using it regularly. If you live in the United States, you can choose French, Spanish, Japanese, or whatnot and you’re probably never going to have a chance to use it. If you do wind up needing to speak another language, it will probably be one you never learned anyhow.

39

Look it. Here he comes. It’s a Canadian. :stuck_out_tongue:

We Canadians often think we’re the experts when it comes to the USA, because we’re their wacky neighbour. So here goes.

Americans are not stupider than anyone else. They have just as much IQ as anyone. That’s not the issue.

However, I would argue that, as a nation, Americans are more ignorant than some other nations.

Sure, some of that is justified. They’re a massive megaculture, and so there’s less reason for them to know about others, epseically when you factor in that the only truly foreign country they border is Mexico. We Canadians know that we’re very different from the USA, but compared to the differences between say, France and Portugal, we’re much the same. Same food, same language, same ethnic mix more or less, etc etc.

And some of it is willing ignorance, sad to say There is a very strong anti-intellectual bias in some of the main strata of right-wing American thought. The right wing tends to not like teachers, schools, college, education, or learning, as a rule. The feeling seems to be "All those things tend to make people less right wing, and therefore, ipso facto, they’re bad. "

There’s a certain white trash populism to this anti-intellectual bias. They court the demographic of those who were never too good at that book-learnin’ stuff. That’s fine in and of itself, but when a nation, on any level, endorses the idea that it’s perfectly fine to be proud of what you do not know, you are in very deep trouble. You are in effect enabling these people’s marginalization by encouraging in them the very tendencies that keep them down. Knowledge is power.

So I would say that there’s certain parts of American culture that are considerably more ignorant than their European counterparts, or at least, their Canadian ones. They embrace ignorance as a virtue, and wear it with pride.

And that brings down the averages for the nations as a whole, you dig?

40

Actually things aren’t the same as they used to be. Contemporary immigrants are switching to English much faster than past immigrants did.