# Am I a bigot (on transgendered folk)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 11, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518 "2014-01-11T16:27:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/21 "2014-01-11T20:24:08Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Of course, but like I said there are a million reasons why a straight man might not be attracted to a woman, but that doesn’t mean they can’t recognise their gender…we’d have a hard time operating as a society if it were otherwise. But when it’s a transgender woman and that reason is ‘because I think of you as a man’ that’s a direct contradiction of a gender identity. If for some reason you did think of me as a man then I would still expect you to respect the fact that I identify as a woman and behave accordingly. Your personal views on who is and isn’t “really” a woman would not be any of my business unless you chose to make them my business. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/22 "2014-01-11T20:33:51Z")
I think one problem with this line of thinking though is that, what if you are at one point in position of power over something that a trans person might need. Say, going to a gym/locker room/using a bathroom at work. Would your views and attitudes then clashes with the trans person’s interests? Would you prevent a trans person to use the facilities/activities according to their new legal sex? Because, yeah, what one random person is thinking of me in his head, I just don’t care. If you were a friend, I might distance myself if I knew about your views. Or convince a non-trans friend to say they’re trans to you just to see if you’re going to do the “oooh I just could tell! because you act like/look like/said this or that” dance. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/23 "2014-01-11T20:34:04Z")
Stop thinking to much about other people’s genitals or chromosomes. Unless you are in an intimate relationship it is none of your goddamned business whether either or both match how that person considers him-or-herself. ---
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/24 "2014-01-11T20:44:34Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > It wouldn’t bother you that, from what is in your perspective (I’m assuming, correct me if I’m wrong), someone is holding an unhappy accident of birth that is now being rectified medically against you? Taking it back a step, how much do people like me bother you - thinking you’re the wrong gender, even if they keep secret in your presence? Appreciate your feedback as it’s something I’ve literally zero experience in, as **even sven** has inferred. Don’t get me wrong, life would be a lot easier if everyone were fully accepting, especially at this stage when I do–to put it bluntly–look like a man with make-up and fake tits. But in the real world, there are a lot of people out there who are never going to see me as a “real” woman. It’s just an inconvenient fact. And as I’ve said before, all I can ask is that they address me in my chosen manner and let me live my life. And all I can do is talk to them, and maybe they’ll change their mind once they can associate a human being with the subject. I’m much more concerned about people who are going to discriminate against me, give me verbal abuse, or get violent. ---
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/25 "2014-01-11T20:48:21Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Stop thinking to much about other people’s genitals or chromosomes. Unless you are in an intimate relationship it is none of your goddamned business whether either or both match how that person considers him-or-herself. This, a thousand times. (I’ve just mentioned it in the other thread, actually.) People are _obsessed_ with our genitals. Please stop it. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/26 "2014-01-11T20:49:23Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/27 "2014-01-11T21:23:34Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If for some reason you did think of me as a man then I would still expect you to respect the fact that I identify as a woman and behave accordingly. Your personal views on who is and isn’t “really” a woman would not be any of my business unless you chose to make them my business. Your second sentence contradicts your first. Because you are quite correct that someone’s personal views on what constitutes a woman are nobody else’s business. Unless they come to me and insist that I play along with their personal views instead of my own. If it’s none of my business what you think is a woman, then it is none of your business what I think is a woman. Play whatever games you want - I’m not going to beat you up or kill you or anything like that. But I’m not going to play along. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_From\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Girl\_From\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_From_Mars)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/28 "2014-01-11T21:30:13Z")
I wonder if you’d opinion might change when in a situation where you actually knew someone personally who transitioned. I admit I’d not thought about it a whole lot until my first boyfriend contacted me via Facebook and told me he was transitioning into a woman. 5 years later I honestly keep forgetting she was ever a boy - the new person with a full range of hopes, frustrations and attitudes ‘fills out’ the shell of the sex change-only that you might be thinking about - my friend is completely a woman and it goes more than skin deep. ---
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/29 "2014-01-11T21:47:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Your second sentence contradicts your first. Because you are quite correct that someone’s personal views on what constitutes a woman are nobody else’s business. Unless they come to me and insist that I play along with their personal views instead of my own. > > If it’s none of my business what you think is a woman, then it is none of your business what I think is a woman. Play whatever games you want - I’m not going to beat you up or kill you or anything like that. But I’m not going to play along. > > Regards, > Shodan What you call “playing along,” others might call “not being a dick”. By addressing a trans person in the way they want to be addressed, you’re showing a modicum of respect for them, at no cost to yourself. It makes no difference to you whatsoever – it takes just as much effort to say “she” as it does “he”. But to the other person, it makes the difference between feeling like a respected human being and feeling like a piece of shit. Believe what you like, but don’t let it get in the way of good manners. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/30 "2014-01-11T22:18:24Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Am I prejudiced if I think that people like Mr. K. are assholes? Don’t call other members names in this forum, use the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/31 "2014-01-11T22:32:31Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Edit: this is in response to **Hari Seldon**. Yes. He is saying that he treats people with respect and according to their preferences, and he has come here to deal with the underlying issues. That doesn’t sound like an asshole to me. Well, everyone has their own standard as to what is acceptable behavior and what isn’t. Personally, “I know better than you what gender you should be presenting as,” strikes me as a tad arrogant at best. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/32 "2014-01-11T22:56:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Your second sentence contradicts your first. Because you are quite correct that someone’s personal views on what constitutes a woman are nobody else’s business. Unless they come to me and insist that I play along with their personal views instead of my own. > > If it’s none of my business what you think is a woman, then it is none of your business what I think is a woman. Play whatever games you want - I’m not going to beat you up or kill you or anything like that. But I’m not going to play along. > > Regards, > Shodan So, you wouldn’t mind if you happen to fit the category of what I think is a woman and I addressed you as such? Or would you find it just a tad annoying that I refused to address you as you self acknowledge ? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/33 "2014-01-11T22:59:06Z")
> [@Kiyoshi](#): > > What you call “playing along,” others might call “not being a dick”. > > By addressing a trans person in the way they want to be addressed, you’re showing a modicum of respect for them, at no cost to yourself. It makes no difference to you whatsoever – it takes just as much effort to say “she” as it does “he”. But to the other person, it makes the difference between feeling like a respected human being and feeling like a piece of shit. How about showing me a modicum of respect by not asking me to play along with something that I don’t think is real in the same sense as you do? I would think good manners would include not calling people names if they don’t care to participate in what we agree ought to be up to the individual, and not anyone else’s business. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/34 "2014-01-11T23:00:51Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > So, you wouldn’t mind if you happen to fit the category of what I think is a woman and I addressed you as such? Or would you find it just a tad annoying that I refused to address you as you self acknowledge ? Knock yourself out. Keep in mind that you are going to look a lot sillier calling a guy in a moustache “she” than I do referring as “she” to a guy in a dress. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/35 "2014-01-11T23:06:36Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > I doubt many men would think the first, while in the second case there are myriad reasons for a straight male to not think of a woman in romantic terms. On the other hand if the woman used to be a man that’s all she wrote, regardless of any other factors. Hopefully I’m making some kind of sense. Perhaps your problem is with the transformation, not the end result. The two examples I know came out of the procedure looking like women, and I didn’t know them as men, but I’d guess they were always women at heart. At work one person came out as a man (not come out in the closet sense, came out of the procedure sense) and as a woman he was kind of mannish. I figure we are just setting nature right, as we do so often nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/36 "2014-01-11T23:12:35Z")
> [@Girl\_From\_Mars](#): > > I wonder if you’d opinion might change when in a situation where you actually knew someone personally who transitioned. I admit I’d not thought about it a whole lot until my first boyfriend contacted me via Facebook and told me he was transitioning into a woman. 5 years later I honestly keep forgetting she was ever a boy - the new person with a full range of hopes, frustrations and attitudes ‘fills out’ the shell of the sex change-only that you might be thinking about - my friend is completely a woman and it goes more than skin deep. I have to agree with this. Knowing several people through transition, I find it’s much easier in practice than as an intellectual exercise. If I met someone as Paul and later Paul became Pauline, for a short period of time (a couple weeks, max) I find myself correcting my pronouns and apologizing a lot. But then even in my own head, memories about Paul get _he’s_ and \*his \*and _Paul_, and memories of Pauline get _she’s_ and \*hers \*and _Pauline_, and while I certainly don’t forget that Pauline and Paul are the same person, my brain has no problem keeping it straight. What I have trouble with is telling a Paul-era story and using the name Pauline. Running with hippies as I do, it’s the same for names. My friend Ladybug now works at my company. Professionally, she’s always used her given name, Tammy. At work, I refer to her and think of her as Tammy. Socially, she’s still Ladybug. It was a little confusing the first week or so, and I caught myself asking my boss, “Is Ladybu-I-mean-Tammy working tomorrow?” but I got over it pretty quick. I think most bigotry, including benign bigotry, is greatly diminished when you actually get to know the people that intimidate you. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/37 "2014-01-11T23:17:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Knock yourself out. Keep in mind that you are going to look a lot sillier calling a guy in a moustache “she” than I do referring as “she” to a guy in a dress. > > Regards, > Shodan Clearly you’ve never met my great aunt Gertrude. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/38 "2014-01-11T23:35:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How about showing me a modicum of respect by not asking me to play along with something that I don’t think is real in the same sense as you do? So wait a minute– Here’s the scenario: You go to work for a new company. You sometimes deal with Jane in accounting. By the by, somebody mentions that up until a few years ago, Jane used to be John. Do you start sending emails to Jane that say “Hi John?” ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/39 "2014-01-11T23:55:22Z")
> [@Kiyoshi](#): > > What you call “playing along,” others might call “not being a dick”. > > By addressing a trans person in the way they want to be addressed, you’re showing a modicum of respect for them, at no cost to yourself. It makes no difference to you whatsoever – it takes just as much effort to say “she” as it does “he”. But to the other person, it makes the difference between feeling like a respected human being and feeling like a piece of shit. > > Believe what you like, but don’t let it get in the way of good manners. Exactly. I’m not the thought police, so if for some reason another person didn’t believe that I was “really” a woman (or not “really” anything else that’s a part of my personal identity) then I would neither know nor care…unless that person chose to let me know about it through their words or actions. And by that point we’re no longer in the realm of personal beliefs. Other people’s personal beliefs are not my business, but the way they treat me is. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make to the OP. Other people aren’t going to care much about what you _think_, they are going to care about what you _say_ and _do_. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518/40 "2014-01-11T23:57:46Z")
**Mr. Kobayashi** , I don’t think you’re an asshole, or even much of a bigot (a bit around the edges, maybe, but hey, we’re all bigoted against someone). I think it’s great you’re willing to challenge your own views, and I’d like to throw you some food for thought: Biological gender isn’t as binary as most people think. There are people with intersex conditions of varying degrees, some so severely that when they are born, and the doctor who caught the baby is asked if the baby is a boy or a girl, the only possible answer is “I don’t know”. These days, these children are left surgically untouched as much as possible, until they are old enough to help determine what gender they are. In the past, the doctor would randomly assign them a gender, and they would be surgically altered to be one or the other. Sometimes the doctor was wrong. These people were now stuck in the wrong bodies, not because they were born the “wrong” sex, but because someone did that to them. If such a person wished to return socially to their true gender, what would you view them as? The gender they feel like, or the gender the doctor assigned them, and surgically altered them to? On the other hand, there are other intersex conditions where the sex of the child isn’t ambiguous at all. They are born, and look like little girls or little boys, with standard factory issue parts and they see themselves as the gender they look like. But years later, it is discovered that the little girl, a woman now, who feels and looks 100% female, has XY chromosomes. What is this person? The gender she looks like, feels like, has been raised as and treated as her whole life? Or what the chromosomes say? What if there could be intersex conditions of the brain? Where the body is one sex but the brain is another? What is the person then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-bigot-on-transgendered-folk/678518.md?page=3)