Am I a Christian?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
I was raised as a Presbyterian. I was baptized and confirmed as a member of the Presbyterian Church USA. I have taken communion. I have not been back to church since my confirmation except for a few ceremonies and one service that a woman wanted me to attend with her. I do not believe there is a God nor I do think that Jesus is my lord and savior. However, I have not been excommunicated or asked to leave the church. The church that I was confirmed at still sends me mail from time to time . (I am not sure what it says because it goes to my parents house and I always tell them they can just throw it away.) Also, I have never taken any steps to leave the church in any official capacity.

So am I still a Christian since I am still technically a member of the Presbyterian Church USA?
[/QUOTE]

If you try to follow the teachings of Jesus, I would say you are a Christian. Church membership is not necessary. If you are worried about Heaven or Hell don’t be. While Heaven and Hell exist in the spiritual realms there is a great deal more there also. Yes, you will have free will in the spirit world as you do here, you will not be forced to do things if you don’t want to do them. The spirit world, much greater than the physical, is not dualistic as the physical. Certainly not black or white, Heaven or Hell. God will not harm you not matter what you believe or do, this is the doctrine of man not God. God is unconditional love, you have nothing to fear. The only enemy you have is yourself.

22

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Well, religions may be exceptional in this respect. Not many political icons threaten you with eternal damnation if you don’t follow them all.
[/QUOTE]
Eh, just leave the “eternal damnation” part in the percentage you don’t believe in. My impression is that’s what the majority of Christians posting here do.

23

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Agreed. Presuming that one means something reasonably close to what a hearer might infer from the use of the name – otherwise it’s pure Humptydumptyism. (“A word means whatever I choose to mean by it.”)
[/quote]
As Fear Itself just pointed out, and as I’ve said in the past, you CAN’T tell anything about someone because they call themselves a Christian, except in a statistical fashion ( as in, someone who is Christian is more likely to believe in only one god than a Hindu ). Christian is indeed a Humptydumptyistic sort of word.

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Welll, presuming we Christians are right, Jesus gets to do that defining. And if we’re wrong, it hardly matters who does it, does it?
[/quote]
Christianity has little to do with Jesus, man or myth, god or mortal. He started it, but as of the present day it is a broad family of belief systems with a life of their own.

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
You know, things like “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all that is in thee,” “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,” “Do unto others as thou woulds have them do unto thee,” “Judge not, lest ye be judged,” “Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of hte least of these, you have done it unto me.” These comprise a coherent behavior set that can be shown to be His expectations to the extent that anything can.

On the other hand, “Thou shalt smite the abortionist,” “Thou shalt despise thy gay brother or sister, and call him or her abomination,” “Thou shalt cast thy vote for the man with the elephant,” “Thou shalt not suffer a woman to stand as equal to a man” – these are nowhere found in Scripture, save in the conclusions of some from debatable or context-free passages.
[/QUOTE]
“I come not to bring peace, but a sword” comes to mind as a justification, as does “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”, among others. You are quoting very selectively.

And the supposedly nice things you quoted easily can and often have been interpreted as commands for the bad behavior I mentioned; after all, you are doing those nasty things for people’s own good. Such as, if being abused into “turning straight” will save you from an eternity of torture at the hands of your loving God, of course you would want to be “made straight”; you are just doing unto others what you’d want them to do to you when you try to force people to be straight. Or to go farther back, there was the “If I were black, I’d want to be a slave, so the Golden Rule demands we enslave blacks !” excuse for slavery. All arguments used by Christians.

And the Bible does speak out against gays and women. It’s also pro-slavery and pro genocide among other things. It’s an evil and barbaric document, and hardly something a modern moral code should be based on.

24

I’d say you’re a Christian because you were baptized and a heretic because you reject basic Christian doctrine.

25

[QUOTE=sciurophobic]
I’d say you’re a Christian because you were baptized and a heretic because you reject basic Christian doctrine.
[/QUOTE]

Heretic: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine.
Apostate: one who renunciates a religious faith.

The OP sounds a bit more like an apostate to me.

26

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
If you consider yourself a C’tian, you’re a C’tian.
[/QUOTE]

I’d turn this around and say “Anyone who does not consider themselves a Christian is not a Christian.” The fact that the OP says this:

makes me believe that he doesn’t consider himself to be a Christian.

Incidentally, the Presbyterian Church, like a lot of Protestant denominations and unlike the Catholic Church, practices open communion. They won’t turn anyone away from taking communion. They won’t ask for baptismal records or proof of church membership or anything like that.

They don’t excommunicate people, either, AFAIK.

Does the Presbyterian Church even have a way for someone to do this if they wanted to?

27

No: your username contradicts the procreation-only stance of the church :slight_smile:

28

I’m not sure anyone but you, yourself can answer that. Dictionary definitions aside, look at other christians, ask yourself what you really believe, and decide. There are way too many kinds of people calling themselves christians for any one definition to fit them all.

29

By my understanding, you’re not a C’tian any longer. If you don’t self-declare, and you don’t deliberately follow Jesus, then you aren’t one.

And I say this with the confidence of one who isn’t a Mormon, despite the LDS church having me on record as one.

30

[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
I was raised as a Presbyterian. I was baptized and confirmed as a member of the Presbyterian Church USA. I have taken communion. I have not been back to church since my confirmation except for a few ceremonies and one service that a woman wanted me to attend with her. I do not believe there is a God nor I do think that Jesus is my lord and savior. However, I have not been excommunicated or asked to leave the church. The church that I was confirmed at still sends me mail from time to time . (I am not sure what it says because it goes to my parents house and I always tell them they can just throw it away.) Also, I have never taken any steps to leave the church in any official capacity.

So am I still a Christian since I am still technically a member of the Presbyterian Church USA?
[/QUOTE]

Why do you ask?

-FrL-

31

[QUOTE=lekatt]
If you try to follow the teachings of Jesus, I would say you are a Christian. Church membership is not necessary. If you are worried about Heaven or Hell don’t be. While Heaven and Hell exist in the spiritual realms there is a great deal more there also. Yes, you will have free will in the spirit world as you do here, you will not be forced to do things if you don’t want to do them. The spirit world, much greater than the physical, is not dualistic as the physical. Certainly not black or white, Heaven or Hell. God will not harm you not matter what you believe or do, this is the doctrine of man not God. God is unconditional love, you have nothing to fear. The only enemy you have is yourself.
[/QUOTE]

To hijack a bit…Lekatt, what else do you think exists in the spiritual realms?

And to answer the OP, I would say no, since you say you don’t believe in God or Jesus. Because you used to attend a church means nothing.

32

Technically wouldn’t he be a heretic? A quick trip to the dictionary somewhat confirms this:
"a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church. "

I mean ignoring the connotation of the word of course. That seems to be a pretty good definition if there was one. He once went to church, believed in god, got confirmed and baptized etc and then rejected it. I believe this would also decidedly classify him as not a christian.

Though the Presbyterian Church USA does tend to believe “once confirmed always a member of the church.” (I got confirmed at one in 9th grade mainly because my Grandparents and mom were so animate about it) Though it’s not like they keep a central roster to my knowledge. Not that it matters, if God agrees with your life and doctrines you’re good if he doesn’t you’re fucked anyway so I try not to worry about it (not being Christian really helps with the not worrying part ;)).

33

[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]

So am I still a Christian since I am still technically a member of the Presbyterian Church USA?
[/QUOTE]

You may have been excommunicated and haven’t been told. I was baptized and raised in a Calvinist church as well and stopped going, following my father’s exit. At the age of 21, elders visited me, and requested what my intentions were since they needed to know whether to strike me off the “Book of Life”.

I told them to do what they had to do and they left. Never heard from them again and its been at least 35 years.

Then you are an atheist. I never heard of a Christian atheist.

On the other hand you might not be an atheist and don’t know it. I think I might have detected a Fruedian slip. Why did you capitalize “god”. Are you afraid not to give Him his due ?

Had you posted , " I do not believe God exists" you would merely capitalize the name of a mythical figure quite correctly, but the construction of your sentence does not require capitalizing the word “god” unless you are a good Christian.

Am I being helpful ? :wink:

34

[QUOTE=Jragon]
Technically wouldn’t he be a heretic? A quick trip to the dictionary somewhat confirms this:
"a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church. "

[/QUOTE]

He doesn’t maintain any religious opinions

He’s better described as an apostate.

35

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
Had you posted , " I do not believe God exists" you would merely capitalize the name of a mythical figure quite correctly, but the construction of your sentence does not require capitalizing the word “god” unless you are a good Christian.

Am I being helpful ? :wink:
[/QUOTE]

I don’t quite agree with you here (though it was probably in jest it’s argument day… SUPRISE!)

His post was referring to Christianity and thus was referring to the Christian God (I do not believe there is a God [as portrayed in my old faith]), had he been talking about gods in any context it should have been phrased “I do not believe [any gods exist].” (or simply “in any gods”).

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
He doesn’t maintain any religious opinions

He’s better described as an apostate.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, I see what you’re saying. i hate dictionary wording sometimes. When I saw the “or” in the definition I thought it was saying:

a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church
or
rejects doctrines prescribed by that church. (int his case acceptance of Jesus, belief in God)

not

a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church
or
a professed believer who rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

You’re right Apostate probably would fit more, since it’s definition is flat out “one who forsakes their religion” (or cause etc).

36

Technically… you’re probably still on the PCA’s books as a member. In my experience, Presbyterians don’t excommunicate people; excommunication seems to be limitd to only a few denominations of Christianity like Catholic, LDS, JW, some anabaptists, and probably a few other. Most protestant churches don’t practice excommunication. Once you’re on the books, you stay on the books unless you ask them to remove you as a member.

Now, someone mentioned something interesting here… that they’d never heard of an atheist/agnostic Christian. Interesting enough, my church has both agnostic and atheist christians that are enrolled on our books. But we’re Quakers, we’re odd ducks that way. LOL.

37

[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
So am I still a Christian since I am still technically a member of the Presbyterian Church USA?
[/QUOTE]
Not only are you not a Christian your numerous posts regarding the religion suggest you have issues with it.

38

[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
I do not believe there is a God nor I do think that Jesus is my lord and savior.
[/QUOTE]

This pretty much cinches it.

I don’t know why you have any doubts in this regard. Believing in God and the divinity of Christ is what a Christian is. You don’t, so you aren’t.

Not being excommunicated, of course, means nothing. Excommunication, even in churches that practice it like the Roman Catholic Church, is usually reserved for people who prominently advocate things that conflict with Church teachings; they don’t go around excommunicating every person who stops going to Mass. (They haven’t excommunicated me.) And, logically, you could be excommunicated from one Church and remain a Christian; if I publicly condemned the Pope and advocated abortion they might excommunicate me but I’d still be a Christian, if not a Catholic, if I still believed in God and Jesus Christ.

39

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Believing in God and the divinity of Christ is what a Christian is. You don’t, so you aren’t.
[/QUOTE]
Why is that mandatory, while other commandments of Jesus (such as selling all you own, and turning the other cheek) are considered optional by many self-described Christians? They both come from the same scriptures, and neither is expressly described as discretionary, so why is anything in the New Testament considered mandatory to be a Christian? In the absence of scriptural guidance, it seems to me you either accept all as mandatory, or all as optional.

40

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Why is that mandatory, while other commandments of Jesus (such as selling all you own, and turning the other cheek) are considered optional by many self-described Christians? They both come from the same scriptures, and neither is expressly described as discretionary, so why is anything in the New Testament considered mandatory to be a Christian? In the absence of scriptural guidance, it seems to me you either accept all as mandatory, or all as optional.
[/QUOTE]

Because, Jesus is the binding part of it. If you do the hard part (giving from your own pocket, turning t he other cheek love thy neighbor stuff) and not the easy part (believing in God, listening to some guy ramble for an hour every Sunday) there are many words for that, altruist immediately springs ot mind, not to mention there are many Bhuddists, Hindi, Wiccans, Muslims, Shintoists, Worshippers of the Olympian Pantheon, okay before I get more ridiculous basically there are many people that can be described as following the same or similar doctrine. Jesus and God is the pervading binding factor that seperates them from your random altruistic as hell Wiccan.