# Am I a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624 "2010-12-28T17:40:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/21 "2010-12-28T21:50:31Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Am I also a Muslim if I say I am? What about a Shintoist? > > Is religion really “whatever you say you are?” Is that not _incredibly_ insulting to members of those religions? > > What else can I be just by saying I am? A hypnotist? A Yale graduate? A Zimbwabean? A saint? A superhero? A Vietnam Vet? A woman? A black person? A dolphin? > > In my opinion, you are what you actually are, not what you decide to say you are. But none of those examples (except for the Muslim and Shinto ones) are even remotely similar. And Muslims could fairly reasonably claim to be Christians, even though they don’t. The point about beliefs is that we cannot accurately know what people believe, so we to some point have to take them at their word. So yes, I can say I believe in tarot, or Jesus, or some god. That doesn’t mean that particular statement is _accurate_, but if I say I am a - generic - Christian, there really isn’t much point in arguing with me unless I also say something that contradicts it - for instance - that I don’t believe Jesus was a real person (and even then, I could probably make a fairly decent, though unconventional) argument. It would only really get problematic if I stated that Jesus’ ideas were all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/22 "2010-12-28T22:12:16Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Am I also a Muslim if I say I am? Yes. > [@](#): > > What about a Shintoist? Yes. > [@](#): > > Is religion really “whatever you say you are?” Is that not _incredibly_ insulting to members of those religions? No, it isn’t. Unless you’re being insincere or deliberately deceptive, like the Jews for Jesus. > [@](#): > > What else can I be just by saying I am? A hypnotist? A Yale graduate? A Zimbwabean? A saint? A superhero? A Vietnam Vet? A woman? A black person? A dolphin? Except for “hypnotist,” “saint” and “superhero” – which are all basically matters of opinion – the rest of those things have objective definitions that can be tested. That isn’t true for religious beliefs. They can’t really be tested. And they cover broad, almost undefinable, categories of beliefs. Christianity is whatever people claiming to be Christians say it is, because being Christian is an act of self-identification. More specific claims can be tested – such as a claim that one is a Roman Catholic in communion with the Catholic church, or a claim that one is a temple-permitted member of the LDS, or a claim that one is a citizen of a certain country. Those kinds of claims are defined by some recognized authority that dispenses such qualifications. Identity is flimsy that way. The people we call Byzantines considered themselves “Romans,” even though they were Greek-speaking and lived far from Italy. At that place and time, they were Romans, by self-definition. What you claim as your identity, religion-wise, has to be taken at face value, especially broad categories of large religious groups. There is no universally recognized test for a Hindu, or a Christian, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, etc. And many, many people claim such identity based on cultural, social, and family reasons, having nothing to do with belief or dogma. And no one has the authority to strip them of their buttons based on dogmatic examinations. > [@](#): > > In my opinion, you are what you actually are, not what you decide to say you are. Uh-huh. And you’re the identity police, are you? Going to issue articles of faith certifications to everyone who claims to be Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/23 "2010-12-28T22:13:44Z")
So can I still call myself a Vegetarian if I eat fish and chicken? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/24 "2010-12-28T22:16:10Z")
You wouldn’t be the only one to do that. “Vegetarian” is essentially meaningless as an objective category. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/25 "2010-12-28T23:44:57Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > 1. I do not believe in God or Jesus’ divinity. > 2. I do not base my morality or anything else on Christian views > 3. I was baptized and confirmed in a Prebyterian church. > 4. I have not been to church in 10 years. > 5. I have never officially left my church nor do I plan to. > 6. I have not been asked to leave the church, and I would be disappointed if I was asked to leave. > 7. While I am an agnostic (and an atheist in the same way as Bertrand Russell), I still consider myself to be a Presbyterian and I am an official member of a Presbuterian church. > > Am I a Christian? No. Or to more emphasize the point: **NO** ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/26 "2010-12-29T00:18:17Z")
You are certainly not a Presbyterian as that is understood by members of its congregation, regardless of your being on the roles as a member because you once were. Presbyterians require believe in divinity and a the matters recited in the apostle’s creed. This isn’t really a big deal as a lot “members” are in the same situation more or less openly. There are countless denominations of the Christian church and you could probably find one with the same theologic points that you adhere/don’t adhere to. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/27 "2010-12-29T00:19:17Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > You are a Christian if you call yourself a Christian > > Am I a velociraptor if I call myself a velociraptor? I note that you clipped my quote; the full thing speaks to what is wrong with your analogy, which is why you clipped it I’m sure. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are a Christian if you call yourself a Christian; there isn’t any objective definition for the term. If someone tells you “I believe in Christian values”, does that actually _tell_ you anything? No; it can mean anything from _peace-and-love_ to _kill-the-unbelievers_ to _God-loves-profits_. A velociraptor was a biological species, a creature with _objectively real_ characteristics. Christianity on the other hand is a loosely connected collection of fiction, with nothing objective or consistent about it. Saying that something is a velociraptor - unlike saying that they are a Christian - does give you quite a bit of objective, definite information about them. “Christian” at best gives you the ability to _guess_ about probable characteristics they have. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/28 "2010-12-29T00:21:46Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > OCRT has been cited in _Toronto Star_ and _CBS News_ stories…at least two well-regarded news services apparently considered them authoritative enough to quote on matters of religion. But I’ve never heard of either of those either. I don’t recognise their authority to name an authority. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/29 "2010-12-29T00:24:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Uh-huh. And you’re the identity police, are you? Going to issue articles of faith certifications to everyone who claims to be Christian? Ah, I get it. Your opinion of what a Christian is (“somebody who says they are”) is correct; mine (“somebody who believes in the story of Jesus”) isn’t? And I’m the “identity police”? As long as I disagree with your definition? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/30 "2010-12-29T00:25:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > So can I still call myself a Vegetarian if I eat fish and chicken? Oooh, good one! I’m a vegan! I was a vegan while I ate that steak earlier today. It was delicious! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/31 "2010-12-29T00:27:16Z")
Apologies for the multiple posts, there folks. I should have multiquoted! I’l try not to spam three posts in a row again - I know how annoying it is. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/32 "2010-12-29T00:27:35Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Ah, I get it. Your opinion of what a Christian is (“somebody who says they are”) is correct; mine (“somebody who believes in the story of Jesus”) isn’t? > > And I’m the “identity police”? As long as I disagree with your definition? I believe in “the story of Jesus”. It obviously exists. In fact, there’s myriads of them. I’m still not a Christian, though. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/33 "2010-12-29T01:44:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I note that you clipped my quote; the full thing speaks to what is wrong with your analogy, which is why you clipped it I’m sure. > > A velociraptor was a biological species, a creature with _objectively real_ characteristics. Christianity on the other hand is a loosely connected collection of fiction, with nothing objective or consistent about it. Saying that something is a velociraptor - unlike saying that they are a Christian - does give you quite a bit of objective, definite information about them. “Christian” at best gives you the ability to _guess_ about probable characteristics they have. For instance then what if you called yourself a “communist” but advocated laissez-faire capitalism? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/34 "2010-12-29T01:45:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > For instance then what if you called yourself a “communist” but advocated laissez-faire capitalism? Rather like Chinese Communism these days? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/35 "2010-12-29T01:52:14Z")
Well, they’re still paying presbytery tax on you, if that makes any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/36 "2010-12-29T01:56:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Rather like Chinese Communism these days? The Chinese Communists are still somewhat socialistic and definitely are not laissez-faire. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/37 "2010-12-29T02:56:38Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I believe in “the story of Jesus”. It obviously exists. In fact, there’s myriads of them. I’m still not a Christian, though. Well, I guess snark is a tactical option in a debate. I’ve done it too in this thread, so I suppose I can’t object too strenuously. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/38 "2010-12-29T06:39:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A velociraptor was a biological species, a creature with _objectively real_ characteristics. But there are objective characteristics to a Christian. In order to be a Christian, you have to: [ul] [li]Believe that God exists[/li][li]Believe that Jesus exists[/li][li]Believe that Jesus is God (and something about a holy spirit or something)[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/39 "2010-12-29T12:11:59Z")
The word “Christian” is just a label. If you know all the relevant properties, what questions does the label answer that the individual properties answer themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624/40 "2010-12-29T12:18:01Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > But there are objective characteristics to a Christian. > In order to be a Christian, you have to: > [ul] > [li]Believe that God exists[/li][li]Believe that Jesus exists[/li][li]Believe that Jesus is God (and something about a holy spirit or something)[/li][/ul] According to you. Someone else could define “Christian” differently, and they’d have just as much (as as little) authority as you do on the matter. For example, someone could go the “Jesus was a great moral teacher” route, reject all the supernatural aspects, and call themselves Christian and mean it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-christian/565624.md?page=3)