# Am I a conspiracy theorist (Osama Bin Laden still alive) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812 "2011-09-10T10:32:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/21 "2011-09-10T22:32:55Z")
The main reason for me, which was the first thought that struck me when I heard about the theory that Osama bin Ladin was not shot and killed by American forces, for not believe any such notion, was, “How on earth would the president of the USA, the White House, the Pentagon, risk making a total, global ass of themselves?” It would be the greatest propaganda blunder in modern history if the president said “We killed Osama bin Ladin” and it later inevitably turned out they didn’t. That the Obama administration would try such a stunt is simply beyond belief to me. It would be in the ballpark of trying to convince the world that you landed on the moon when you didn’t. – Nope, too dumb. The man got shot like they said. Also, Armstrong walked on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/22 "2011-09-10T22:34:08Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Cool story, bro. But I’m not sure how it helps prove that Osama bin Laden is still alive, or how we managed to get al Qaeda to willingly participate in the conspiracy. I don’t know how cool it is as my older brother was sitting on most of those meetings. The story was to illustrate the lengths people will go in falsifying the history and perception and all that with straight face to achieve goals they set for themselves. For these kinds of people it is not a matter of an individual being “in on it” and then “outing” the whole scheme - for them there is no scheme ergo nothing to be in on it and nothing to out. It’s a normal course of action. It is a living paradigm and you can scream all you want - for them, your on the outside. Further point was that if the bunch of illiterate and crude Balkan lowlifes with tendency to get drunk and overeat on a frequent basis can come up with a paradigm such as as this it is certainly something to consider that a circle of selected individuals holding seats of power and common ideological bent in the most powerful imperial power that World has ever seen can create a paradigm thousands time bulletproof. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/23 "2011-09-10T22:44:51Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > The main reason for me, which was the first thought that struck me when I heard about the theory that Osama bin Ladin was not shot and killed by American forces, for not believe any such notion, was, “How on earth would the president of the USA, the White House, the Pentagon, risk making a total, global ass of themselves?” It would be the greatest propaganda blunder in modern history if the president said “We killed Osama bin Ladin” and it later inevitably turned out they didn’t. That the Obama administration would try such a stunt is simply beyond belief to me. It would be in the ballpark of trying to convince the world that you landed on the moon when you didn’t. – Nope, too dumb. More like telling the world that you are invading Iraq because of nonexistent WMDs, their nonexistent drone fleet, their nonexistent mobile bioterror labs…Yes, Obama is apparently smarter than Bush was, but let’s not pretend that the President and government can’t be that dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/24 "2011-09-10T23:53:19Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > I’d sure hate to call the Seals liars. _SEAL_. All capital letters. _Seal_ is an aquatic mammal. > [@](#): > > If the OP decides to do that I’d like to watch. Same here. But personally, I wish {drat: this isn’t in The BBQ Pit so I couldn’t use a cool strike-through comment to truly convey my well-founded opinion of} the conspiracy theorists would give their stupidity a rest for at least one day. It’s disgusting that they’re trotting it out on any day, but especially so on the tenth anniversary of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/25 "2011-09-11T01:15:26Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Further point was that if the bunch of illiterate and crude Balkan lowlifes with tendency to get drunk and overeat on a frequent basis can come up with a paradigm such as as this it is certainly something to consider that a circle of selected individuals holding seats of power and common ideological bent in the most powerful imperial power that World has ever seen can create a paradigm thousands time bulletproof. Fine, a “circle of selected individuals holding seats of power” _might_ do that. Let’s hear how, why, and who you think was involved. We already know it would involve a conspiracy of (at minimum) dozens, all the way up to the President himself. The game of “let’s pretend” isn’t any fun if you refuse to, you know, pretend. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/26 "2011-09-11T01:59:56Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Oh, that pumpkinlike object is your head? Sorry, nevermind. This is not The BBQ Pit and you are way out of line. Stoip it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/27 "2011-09-11T02:42:25Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > The main reason for me, which was the first thought that struck me when I heard about the theory that Osama bin Ladin was not shot and killed by American forces, for not believe any such notion, was, “How on earth would the president of the USA, the White House, the Pentagon, risk making a total, global ass of themselves?” It would be the greatest propaganda blunder in modern history if the president said “We killed Osama bin Ladin” and it later inevitably turned out they didn’t. That the Obama administration would try such a stunt is simply beyond belief to me. It would be in the ballpark of trying to convince the world that you landed on the moon when you didn’t. – Nope, too dumb. The man got shot like they said. Also, Armstrong walked on the moon. Depends, really. You seem to assume the truth would out a couple years later, with the raid still burning in people’s memories ; in which case I suppose it could be indeed damaging. However, were the ruse to only come to light 30-40 years later (as seems to be the average for that kind of stuff, when sealed secret documents are released or some ageing bureaucrat writes his sensationalist memoirs), who’s going to care ? Everybody involved will have left government a long time ago. Al Qaeda might even be a thing of the past by then. I mean really, to give you an example of what I mean, who cared when it turned out that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a sham all along ? Nobody. Hell, who cared when it turned out all that Iraq WMD stuff was made up ? Nobody. Ancient history. Too late, what’s done is done, move on. Besides, what propaganda blunder ? Now, if they had announced “Got him !” when in fact he was still out there, then yes, that \*would \*be a retarded move headed right for an inevitable trainwreck. Announcing “Got him dead !” and it later turns out it was really “Got him jailed !” however, what’s the big issue ? Intelligence ruse, necessary secrecy of the ongoing investigation/interrogation, the public would not only understand but probably even laud such a thing if it’s spun right. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/28 "2011-09-11T04:14:05Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > But… isn’t the more interesting question HOW did they confirm? > > Did he not show up at the scheduled conference call? His Skype was offline? Did he send audio tape to his cohorts? His Facebook status was updated to “Dead”? CSI Karachi? > > How? Not everyone in the compound was killed or taken. The SEALs left behind a number of women and children. Most of whom witnessed the assault and cleanup and would have seen him dead. Even the wife he used as a shield survived and was left behind. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/29 "2011-09-11T08:45:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As mentioned in the title, I have doubts about the death of Osama Bin Laden. Here’s why : > > Even though I understand that detaining/sending him to trial would have created significant issues (hostage taking, for instance), he still was, quite obviously, the single most important source of informations about Al Qaida, so intelligence services would logically want him alive. > > In this situation, wouldn’t _stating_ that he has been killed while in fact he’s secretely detained somewhere be the best of both worlds? > And of course, no evidence that he was actually killed was provided, the pictures of his body not having been released. Providing fake pictures could have been an option, but there’s no doubt that such pictures would have been closely studied by many people, and a faked one would probably have been spotted by a number of experts. > So, am I a nutty conspiracy theorist for suspecting that he might not have been, in fact, killed, but instead abducted? You’re not a conspiracy theorist for having the initial notion. You would be if you one of you discounted the kinds of evidence outlined above and still saw it as a probable scenario. Otara ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/30 "2011-09-11T14:34:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is not The BBQ Pit Yeah, realized that after the fact. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/31 "2011-09-11T14:40:26Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Even the wife he used as a shield survived and was left behind. To avoid lending accidental credence to the “bin Laden is alive” theory, it should be emphasized that the “used his wife as a shield” report [seems to have been complete bullshit](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/bin-ladens-wives-children-arrested-in-raid--1-son-killed/2011/05/02/AFwSTuZF_blog.html). ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/32 "2011-09-11T14:42:28Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yeah, realized that after the fact. Apologies. Yeah, well stoip it of the Moiderator will moider you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/33 "2011-09-12T00:03:24Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > The story was to illustrate the lengths people will go in falsifying the history and perception and all that with straight face to achieve goals they set for themselves. > \ > Further point was that if the bunch of illiterate and crude Balkan lowlifes with tendency to get drunk and overeat on a frequent basis can come up with a paradigm such as as this it is certainly something to consider that a circle of selected individuals holding seats of power and common ideological bent in the most powerful imperial power that World has ever seen can create a paradigm thousands time bulletproof. But wait, let’s compare. Your story is about some people forging some documents and, with the help of a state-controlled media, convincing a group of people whose own ethnic self-perceptions ride on the forgeries being real, that the forgeries were real. Doesn’t sound so impressive stated that way, right? Then add on that the rest of the world didn’t believe it, even though all the people who would know better were dead. Contrast that with the Bin Laden case, where the relevant media are not state-controlled, the rest of the world (including supporters of Bin Laden) _do_ believe the story, and people who would know better are still alive. Not really a comparable case, right? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/34 "2011-09-12T09:02:17Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > These two statements seem to be contradictory. If he was abducted, why not just knock him out, take photos of the body, and say he was dead? There is no way anybody could distinguish an unconscious body from a dead one based upon a photograph. I’m sure they can be told apart.. Especially since, as mentioned by another poster, you’d expect Bin Laden’s corpse to have holes in it. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > If he was taken alive, why photo him where he was taken? You’d do it somewhere else, with appropriate special effects to simulate death. … I’m sure you could shot pictures that look like he’s dead, but there would be a significant risk that experts looking at them could tell they are fake. > [@Mosier](#): > > Unfortunately, yes. Your hypothetical requires dozens (hundreds?) of people to cooperate without spilling it. […] There were plenty of people who witnessed the body and burial. It is quite unreasonable to assert that bin Laden might still be alive. How do you know there were “plenty” of people witnessing the burial at sea? As for the others, even though there would be a number of them, they would all be special forces, intelligence officers and high-ranking officials, the kind of people you would actually expect to not spill the story. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Why would Al-Qaeda confirm his death if he wasn’t dead? Because there was evidences of the storming of the building and that he was nowhere to be found. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/35 "2011-09-12T09:10:08Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > I’d sure hate to call the Seals liars. If the OP decides to do that I’d like to watch. > [@Monty](#): > > Same here. But personally, I wish {drat: this isn’t in The BBQ Pit . I would have no hesitation calling SEAL liars. In fact, I would _expect_ them to lie if told to. Go and flame away. > [@Wakinyan](#): > > The main reason for me, which was the first thought that struck me when I heard about the theory that Osama bin Ladin was not shot and killed by American forces, for not believe any such notion, was, “How on earth would the president of the USA, the White House, the Pentagon, risk making a total, global ass of themselves?”. Because they wouldn’t risk making an ass of themselves? Abducting him instead of killing him would be a sensible move, and I doubt that, even if disclosed, the American public would be infuriated to know he was detained for interogation. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/36 "2011-09-12T09:15:36Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > As far as the “abduction” raid in Abbottabad goes, how do you suppose it differs from the official account([according to this piece in the New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle?currentPage=all))? Thanks for the link. > [@Mosier](#): > > There were women in the house (and at least one in the same room when bin Laden was killed) who were not taken into custody, but rather turned over to Pakistan after being interrogated for example. > [@](#): > > Specifically, if there’s a chance that Osama’s wife Amal saw anything that does not line up with the official account, why was she shot in the calf instead of the head a half dozen times? > [@Mosier](#): > > Didn’t Osama’s wife watch him die? > [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Not everyone in the compound was killed or taken. The SEALs left behind a number of women and children. . The presence of civilian (and relatives of OBL to boot) witnesses of the raid was the part I had missed. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/37 "2011-09-12T10:11:02Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Not everyone in the compound was killed or taken. The SEALs left behind a number of women and children. Yes, that was a clear violation of God’s instructions in Psalm 137:9 – “_Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones._” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/38 "2011-09-12T12:52:55Z")
The thing is, I almost _want_ to believe a conspiracy on this because there was no sense of closure. It was such an anti-climax for him to be the world’s most wanted man for ten years, heck the very symbol of terrorism, and then one day be dead and the body is in the sea somewhere. It would be like a mission to Mars but announcing it for the first time the day after the astronauts have returned to earth. And saying there’s no photos / video for security reasons. At the least there should have been a video of a 30 minute fist fight between him and obama 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/39 "2011-09-12T13:03:02Z")
I think it’s great that the scum was dropped into the ocean. I live in a coastal city and it’s less than a ten-minute drive for me to get to a pier. At least once a week, I go to the seaside and hock a loogie into the ocean. Also, CTers are WONJs. There’s no reasoning with them. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812/40 "2011-09-12T15:31:06Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > But wait, let’s compare. Your story is about some people forging some documents and, with the help of a state-controlled media, convincing a group of people whose own ethnic self-perceptions ride on the forgeries being real, that the forgeries were real. Doesn’t sound so impressive stated that way, right? Then add on that the rest of the world didn’t believe it, even though all the people who would know better were dead. Contrast that with the Bin Laden case, where the relevant media are not state-controlled, the rest of the world (including supporters of Bin Laden) _do_ believe the story, and people who would know better are still alive. Not really a comparable case, right? I wasn’t really comparing to the OP. My thoughts on OP are already up there. The point I was trying to make is that in the case from Balkans there was a superior and ultimate power (ICTY) that was able and willing to subject local conspiracy to tedious and time consuming due diligence. The key is – even though there were people who were not convinced and who did raise an issue – that the conspiracy met the authority of ICTY enforced by NATO that elevated it to a due process that most people abide by. To go off tangent here, but compare that to Iraq war conspiracy – it’s all clear, a large amount of people who were/are not convinced about WMD and large number of people who did/are raised/raising an issue yet no authority is available to allow it a due process and ultimately try Bush Jr., Cheney and others for a conspiracy to mislead US to a war that cost hundreds thousands of lives both Iraqis and US soldiers. I mean, come on, Iraq as a state sponsor of 9/11 was mentioned the next day, on 9/12. Such an authority is/was missing for decades and in the absence of such an authority lots of things can occur because it becomes very easy to recruit people for whatever one wants to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-conspiracy-theorist-osama-bin-laden-still-alive/595812.md?page=3)