# Am I a judgmental prick? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 24, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980 "2007-07-24T18:13:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RedRosesForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/21 "2007-07-24T20:43:01Z")
I’d take a hijab that might make my face and head a little sweaty over high heels that actually cause physical deformities of the feet. Whose culture is more barbaric? From what I’ve read, most women prefer the hijab and traditional dress for one simple reason- they can go about their business without being ogled by men. Plus, it’s considered a sign of modesty- just like Western women not going to the office in a bikini. It just happens to be a little more modest than we’re used to. But, to your question, perhaps you should try to be a little more tolerant of other cultures unless you have evidence that the women in question are being forced to dress this way against their will. I wouldn’t call you a judgemental prick… But you never know, these people spent thousands of years in the desert dressed this way (both women AND men) so maybe these women were laughing at all the people in shorts and tanks tops who were sweating their ass off. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/22 "2007-07-24T20:44:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sofaspud] Side note: have you ever worn dark robes in the heat? I grew up in the desert, and lemme tell ya something: they’re more comfortable than you think. I don’t know if it’s because of convection currents (which is the psuedo-scientific answer I got when I asked the question of my fourth-grade teacher) or what, but I prefer dark, baggy clothing when I’m out in the heat. So, the point is, those women may very well have been chortling to themselves at how comfortable they were while their husbands/fathers roasted in the sun. [/QUOTE] Just to ask a dumb question, aren’t light colored baggy clothes, which reflect rather than absorb the light, better than dark baggy clothes? If you’re going wear cumbersome and baggy, don’t you want to go light and baggy, instead of dark and baggy? ---
**Author:** ![Sofaspud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@Sofaspud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofaspud)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/23 "2007-07-24T20:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=zamboniracer] Just to ask a dumb question, aren’t light colored baggy clothes, which reflect rather than absorb the light, better than dark baggy clothes? If you’re going wear cumbersome and baggy, don’t you want to go light and baggy, instead of dark and baggy? [/QUOTE] See, that’s what prompted my question those many years ago. We’d just been taught a bit about reflectivity, light vs. dark, why some stuff was bright and others weren’t, that sort of thing. My teacher used Arabs in the desert as the example and claimed it was convective cooling that did the trick. Supposedly, the cloth absorbed more heat the darker it was. Hot air rises. Cool air must flow in to replace the hot air that’s leaving. Therefore, you have constant airflow, which wicks away the sweat you’re forming, thus cooling you off. I don’t know if this is accurate or if he was just BSing me, but I _have_ worn both light and dark clothing and can state that the dark + baggy combo works best for me. You still sweat, but you don’t feel as hot. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/24 "2007-07-24T20:50:30Z")
[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe] I’d take a hijab that might make my face and head a little sweaty over high heels that actually cause physical deformities of the feet. Whose culture is more barbaric? [/QUOTE] Best of both worlds? > **[sweetness-light.com](http://sweetness-light.com/archive/radical-red-mosque-cleric-captured-in-burqa)** > > Find information, resources and relevant links for sweetness-light.com. This domain may be for sale. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/25 "2007-07-24T20:54:30Z")
Judgmental for sure. You’ve probably seen all sorts of offensive outerwear in your years. Teenyboppers dressed as streetwalkers, boys with their underwear showing in XXXL pants, body piercing overload. All of which you maybe don’t understand. Hell, we all saw Janet Jackson’s breast. This strikes you as more offensive because you view it as subjugation. Even though you admit freely you don’t understand it. But blistering hot countries are chock full of women wearing this garment. I don’t know that you should be so hyper critical of something you willing admit you just don’t understand. Judging muslim culture based on the view from the outside is a grave error in my opinion. Some see this particular choice/requirement (it depends) as an attempt to create an environment wherein woman are not judged or measured by the attractiveness of their bodies, the beauty of their hair, eyes, or faces. If it was all a teenaged rage of fashion you’d be indifferent most likely. Be proud to live in a country without a dress code. Embrace the weirdness that is multiculturalism. ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/26 "2007-07-24T20:56:37Z")
I’ve long thought that high heels were insanely sexist, shoes that hurt the feet and make it difficult to walk and impossible to run away while giving no benefit to the wearer, only pleasure to the (male) viewer. I think that women who wear high heels, while not actually forced to do so, do it because they are pressured into it by their culture, and that no woman who wasn’t subjected to a high-heel-supporting patriarchy would choose to wear them. So I don’t wear high heels. And not wearing high heels is about all I do about my belief, really. I don’t even think all that hard about women I see wearing them. We all have to decide for ourselves what kinds of compromises we’ll make with our culture. ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/27 "2007-07-24T21:01:45Z")
[QUOTE=Sofaspud] See, that’s what prompted my question those many years ago. We’d just been taught a bit about reflectivity, light vs. dark, why some stuff was bright and others weren’t, that sort of thing. My teacher used Arabs in the desert as the example and claimed it was convective cooling that did the trick. Supposedly, the cloth absorbed more heat the darker it was. Hot air rises. Cool air must flow in to replace the hot air that’s leaving. Therefore, you have constant airflow, which wicks away the sweat you’re forming, thus cooling you off. I don’t know if this is accurate or if he was just BSing me, but I _have_ worn both light and dark clothing and can state that the dark + baggy combo works best for me. You still sweat, but you don’t feel as hot. [/QUOTE] [this](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mblackcool.html) more or less supports what you’ve said. Color aside, lets not forget about the importance of fabric content - I’ll take black cotton blouse over white polyester any July day of the week. Although according to my mother its not the fabric content that makes a difference, its how how tightly the cloth is woven. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/28 "2007-07-24T21:06:47Z")
I for one am highly intolerant of any “culture” (I use the term loosely) that condones honor killings and other anti-women activities. These cultures have no place in this country; OP, I’m with you; the burden of proof falls on them to show they are in compliance with western norms. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/29 "2007-07-24T21:10:03Z")
[QUOTE=BwanaBob] I for one am highly intolerant of any “culture” (I use the term loosely) that condones honor killings and other anti-women activities. These cultures have no place in this country; OP, I’m with you; the burden of proof falls on them to show they are in compliance with western norms. [/QUOTE] You’re assuming a lot about these people, simply based on their dress. How do you define “western norms”? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/30 "2007-07-24T21:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=FisherQueen] I’ve long thought that high heels were insanely sexist, shoes that hurt the feet and make it difficult to walk and impossible to run away while giving no benefit to the wearer, only pleasure to the (male) viewer. I think that women who wear high heels, while not actually forced to do so, do it because they are pressured into it by their culture, and that no woman who wasn’t subjected to a high-heel-supporting patriarchy would choose to wear them. [/QUOTE] I dunno, there are plenty of things women do because it makes other women and themselves think they look good, while not necessarily making men think so other than the self-confidence it instills in them. I for one don’t like high heels. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/31 "2007-07-24T21:17:08Z")
[QUOTE=FisherQueen] I’ve long thought that high heels were insanely sexist, shoes that hurt the feet and make it difficult to walk and impossible to run away while giving no benefit to the wearer, only pleasure to the (male) viewer. I think that women who wear high heels, while not actually forced to do so, do it because they are pressured into it by their culture, and that no woman who wasn’t subjected to a high-heel-supporting patriarchy would choose to wear them. So I don’t wear high heels. [/QUOTE] And I would never judge you, or even find you less attractive or feminine, for your refusal to wear them. Neither would anyone else I know. On the other hand, I’m under the impression that the cultural pressure for some Muslim women to wear the burqa is very strong. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/32 "2007-07-24T21:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=ZipperJJ] There’s a character in the awesomely awesome Canadian TV show “Little Mosque on the Prairie” who is a woman, a doctor and a Muslim. She calls herself a “feminist Muslim” and she PREFERS to keep her head covered. It’s completely her choice, too. Her dad does not make her do it (she is not married)… [/QUOTE] When I meet a doctor, I always assume that she can wear what she chooses regardless of her father’s preferences, or even her husband’s. [Here’s a really good blog entry](http://saudistepfordwife.blogspot.com/2007/07/science-abayas-and-thobes.html) about wearing black versus white robes told by someone who knows. [Here’s another entry](http://saudistepfordwife.blogspot.com/2007/07/great-abaya-debate-head-vs-shoulders_24.html) from the same blog about the ongoing debate in Saudi Arabia about how covered up women should be. ---
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/33 "2007-07-24T22:51:40Z")
Judgmental prick, but a rather common one. When I worked in Saudi Arabia, flying in often afforded an opportunity to converse with Saudi women which was much harder to do when we were actually “in country.” My own judgmentalism was completely revised by these conversations: the women hardly consider themselves “property” and most of them will declare a strong preference for the full covering, for a number of reasons, but not because of tradition or coercion. They like it, the same way women in France like high heels - they couldn’t give a flip about what men think. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/34 "2007-07-24T23:31:24Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] And I would never judge you, or even find you less attractive or feminine, for your refusal to wear them. Neither would anyone else I know. On the other hand, I’m under the impression that the cultural pressure for some Muslim women to wear the burqa is very strong. [/QUOTE] Perhaps a better comparison would be wearing a bra? No law that you have to, but if you are endowed enough to make it obvious when you aren’t wearing one, you will face pretty signifigant pressure to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/35 "2007-07-24T23:47:01Z")
[QUOTE=Gary T] Judgemental, yes. As to who’s the prick, that’s a matter of opinion, but I have no sympathy for treating women as property and/or inferior beings, which is what I see behind what you’ve described. [/QUOTE] Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/36 "2007-07-25T01:17:43Z")
[QUOTE=sunacres] Judgmental prick, but a rather common one. When I worked in Saudi Arabia, flying in often afforded an opportunity to converse with Saudi women which was much harder to do when we were actually “in country.” My own judgmentalism was completely revised by these conversations: the women hardly consider themselves “property” and most of them will declare a strong preference for the full covering, for a number of reasons, but not because of tradition or coercion. They like it, the same way women in France like high heels - they couldn’t give a flip about what men think. [/QUOTE] See, this fascinates me. I really appreciate you passing on this perspective to me, even second hand. I would love to talk to such a woman. Even more than that, I would love to talk to a woman who grew up in America and, by marriage and/or relocation, freely chose to start wearing the full covering as an adult, because that would eliminate my ready-made, “You only THINK you like it, because it’s what you grew up around!” argument. I know there are some out there, and I’m sure they don’t _feel_ oppressed. See? I want my ignorance fought, even if it hurts. ☹😉 ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/37 "2007-07-25T01:24:43Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] See, this fascinates me. I really appreciate you passing on this perspective to me, even second hand. I would love to talk to such a woman. Even more than that, I would love to talk to a woman who grew up in America and, by marriage and/or relocation, freely chose to start wearing the full covering as an adult, because that would eliminate my ready-made, “You only THINK you like it, because it’s what you grew up around!” argument. I know there are some out there, and I’m sure they don’t _feel_ oppressed. See? I want my ignorance fought, even if it hurts. ☹😉 [/QUOTE] One of the biggest mosques (if not, the biggest) in North America is by my house and I’m going to go take Arabic lessons when they start up again. If you want me to get you in touch with someone, who, in turn, can probably find someone more local for you to contact, send me a private message or an email. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/38 "2007-07-25T01:41:44Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Even more than that, I would love to talk to a woman who grew up in America and, by marriage and/or relocation, freely chose to start wearing the full covering as an adult, because that would eliminate my ready-made, “You only THINK you like it, because it’s what you grew up around!” argument. I know there are some out there, and I’m sure they don’t _feel_ oppressed. [/QUOTE] How is your own position immune to exactly that same charge? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/39 "2007-07-25T01:52:24Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] How is your own position immune to exactly that same charge? [/QUOTE] It certainly isn’t immune, but it’s probably more resistant to such a charge, simply because I think my upbringing was pretty diverse. I grew up in a biracial home (Vietnamese and American), with parents of two very different religions (Buddhist and Christian), in a community (Washington DC area) with adherents of pretty much every conceivable ethnic group and religious background. I grew up with a very broad concept of what different groups of people consider proper dress and conduct for women. For example, many of my friends growing up were Indian, and their grandmothers would never, ever go out in anything but a sari. I always thought that was pretty cool. Even against that broad spectrum, Muslim women in full cover bother me emotionally for some reason. What I really need, I think, is to get to know some people in person. It’s really hard for me to look down my nose at people I’ve actually met. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980/40 "2007-07-25T01:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe] …perhaps you should try to be a little more tolerant of other cultures unless you have evidence that the women in question are being forced to dress this way against their will. [/QUOTE] When it comes to the FLDS polygamist group, they are. [FLDS - Where Few Dare to Disobey](http://rickross.net/reference/polygamy/polygamy453.html) I know that’s a Rick Ross site, but the article is from the Los Angeles Times. Read it and maybe you’ll understand why there are many in Utah trying to help FLDS women escape the cult. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-judgmental-prick/412980.md?page=3)