# Am I a prude? Ashley Madison.com **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088 "2009-01-06T14:52:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/41 "2009-01-06T21:26:33Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I think there is a big difference in this kind of situation between saying that this is “wrong” for me or someone I know and on the other hand saying this is wrong for everyone. > > Basically, humans have evolved with both fidelity and infidelity being critically important to survival. Fidelity is important largely as an environmental factor, but also infidelity is important largely as a genetic factor. > > It’s perfectly valid to say, “Infidelity is wrong for me.” Or “You, my close friend or loved one, should not commit infidelity.” > > It’s quite different to say, “The whole world should refrain from infidelity.” Because, frankly, the fact that such a large number of people throughout human history have been unfaithful has been a tremendous advantage to the overall survival of the species. > > Each one of us owes our existence to the fact that _multiple_ individuals in our family trees were unfaithful. Without infidelity, none of us would have existed – the world would be populated with entirely different human beings. > > So, yeah, I’m not going to avail myself of the services of such a Web site and I would be disappointed to discover that someone I care about has done so. But the rest of the world? Hey, those genes gotta get mixed. Our past and our future is one great orgy of zygotes. It’s to the advantage of the human race as a whole. > [@Markxxx](#): > > I think it goes against our senses that we are taught not to cheat, but let’s face it we all do. > > It’s just a matter of degree. Just like we all steal, just a matter of degree. > > And face it there IS a difference between making an interest free loan from a monopoly bank and cheating to win an election. > > But our values, whatever they are, always see things as black and white. I’m having a hard time grasping these arguments. **Acsenray** , I don’t think anyone is against mixing genes or multiple partners, as long as it’s an agreed-upon in advance by the two folks in question. It’s one thing to agree to be date around or be in a polyamorous relationship, than to enter into what you feel is a committed, exclusive relationship and then discover the other person is deceiving you about the terms of the bargain. I think the biology argument has its place, but it’s not germane to this particular discussion. **Markxxx** , the same for a philosophical discussion of “degrees” of infidelity. Signing up for an online service designed to get you an extramarital affair… what “degree” is that? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/42 "2009-01-06T21:46:43Z")
> [@Atomicflea](#): > > I’m having a hard time grasping these arguments. **Acsenray** , I don’t think anyone is against mixing genes or multiple partners, as long as it’s an agreed-upon in advance by the two folks in question. The point is that it’s not my place to render judgment regarding whether such a cheating market should exist, given that the human species as a whole benefits from cheating _regardless of the circumstances_. It’s not for us as individuals or as a society to police the whole world of human relationships to determine whether your conditions (“as long as it’s an agreed-upon in advance by the two folks in question”) might be. People out there are going to cheat, and they’re going to do it in whatever circumstances they find themselves in (99 percent of the time in violation of your stated standard). That’s life. That’s human life. That’s the way it has always been. Police your own back yard. Police your best friend’s back yard. But don’t police everyone in the world who might feel an urge to sign up on such Web sites. > [@](#): > > It’s one thing to agree to be date around or be in a polyamorous relationship, than to enter into what you feel is a committed, exclusive relationship and then discover the other person is deceiving you about the terms of the bargain. It’s one thing to set standards for yourself or for people who are close to you. It’s an entirely different thing to start setting standards for the whole of humanity. Humans cheat, they always have throughout human history, they’ve done it in massive numbers, they’ve done it largely without the kind of open understanding you’ve set forth, it has generally been to the benefit of humanity as a whole. Yes, the individuals involved have suffered, but it’s the absolutely most common and mundane form of suffering that humans experience. So, me, I’m not cheating, I’m advising the people close to me not to cheat, but the rest of the world – all the Ashley Madison subscribers out there – it’s none of my business to judge, and, indeed, I hope they all get what they’re hoping for. That’s humanity. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/43 "2009-01-06T22:05:10Z")
> [@Gwyen](#): > > I had this same argument with an acquaintance about this web site. She went on to “prove” her point by say that people now are evolving, that the human race needs to be non-exclusive to survive. Or something… I think it’s entirely possible (although not proven) that we’ve evolved to be non-monogamous. We’ve also evolved to shit scat the size of Hershey’s bars. The latter we choose to do in private, there’s no reason we can’t choose to do the former in public. There may, once upon a time, have been evolutionary reasons for actual hidden cheating, but we’ve removed ourselves from that evolutionary pressure and can afford to be honest about it. > [@acsenray](#): > > Police your best friend’s back yard. But don’t police everyone in the world who might feel an urge to sign up on such Web sites. Who’s trying to “police” anything? Social stigma and personal condemnation do not a police action make. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/44 "2009-01-07T02:20:49Z")
Y’know, what intrigues me is the idea that people may not mind paying upfront to a professional [Celestina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Celestina) to set them up for some “extracurricular” action. This is kinda… I dunno… bloodless? Too businesslike, IMO. Why should I list with an “agent”? I’m not looking for an acting job, I’m trying to get some on the side. People have been having extramarital affairs right and left for ages w/o necessarily requiring a paid “agent”… ---
**Author:** ![MannyL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MannyL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MannyL)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/45 "2009-01-07T02:30:45Z")
What is the music used in the Ashley Madison commercials? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/46 "2009-01-07T03:12:28Z")
That site has to have a 10,000:1 dude to dame ratio. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/47 "2009-01-07T03:16:05Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Who’s trying to “police” anything? Social stigma and personal condemnation do not a police action make. That’s a perfectly valid definition of “police,” especially in a colloquial context. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/48 "2009-01-07T04:12:59Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > There may, once upon a time, have been evolutionary reasons for actual hidden cheating, but we’ve removed ourselves from that evolutionary pressure and can afford to be honest about it. There will never be more than a small number of legitimately polyamorous people, which means that the vast majority of people who want to cheat will have to deceive their partners. Even polygamists cheated. I forget which one, but one of the Indian rajas had a white harem and an Indian harem, neither of whom knew of the other. It’s simply a fundamental part of the human condition. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/49 "2009-01-07T04:38:14Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > There will never be more than a small number of legitimately polyamorous people, which means that the vast majority of people who want to cheat will have to deceive their partners. Fine. Then they’re ethical scum. I’m not going to legislate to prevent their cheating, but neither will I condone or abet it, on a message board or in real life. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/50 "2009-01-07T05:05:36Z")
Honestly, I’m completely baffled by the outrage of many posters. It had always seemed obvious to me that a significant part of the business in personals, dating sites, etc… was providing to people who want to cheat on their SO a convenient way to find a partner. I mean maybe it’s surprising to see a TV add stating so as clearly, but…regarding the outrage about companies facilitating cheating…err…my only response would be : “and in other news, the Pope is catholic”. Really, am I the only one here who always assumed that most of the money made in this line of business was coming from people intent on cheating? And that it was common knowledge? 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![teamfujiwara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@teamfujiwara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teamfujiwara)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/51 "2009-01-07T05:19:44Z")
I’m not sure if I’m offended or curious, but the commercial has certainly struck a cord. Though when listening to Stern, the Ashley Madison commercial is far from the most shocking item on the air 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/52 "2009-01-07T14:40:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > But don’t police everyone in the world who might feel an urge to sign up on such Web sites. I wouldn’t have the resources for it, even if I wanted to. I’m not calling the show to express condemnation, nor am I leading a boycott. I am expressing that it squicks me out on a message board, and not only because I feel it is unfair and unkind to the people being decieved, but I have better expectations of humanity as a whole. Are my feelings or attitudes less human that they don’t deserve expression? > [@](#): > > It’s one thing to set standards for yourself or for people who are close to you. It’s an entirely different thing to start setting standards for the whole of humanity. I think this is an important point, because you seem to think of “humanity” as an amorphous mass, while I am referring to the same humanity as a collection of individuals such as myself or those in my back yard. I don’t police anyone. Not even my husband, because if he chooses to cheat he will do so. That doesn’t mean I still don’t think it’s a depressing, disappointing, terrible thing. ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/53 "2009-01-07T14:42:53Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Really, am I the only one here who always assumed that most of the money made in this line of business was coming from people intent on cheating? And that it was common knowledge? 😕😕 I always assumed it was folks legitimately looking for a partner. An udpate: this AM the commercial was a live read by Artie Lang, and was phrased along the lines of “is it too expensive for you to consider divorce in this economy, but you’re trapped in an unhappy marriage? Ashley Madison has the solution!” ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/54 "2009-01-07T18:24:02Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If some number of individuals are going to cheat, it’s not worth our energy as a society trying to stop them. Let them cheat, get caught, and get divorced. That means the marriages that last are good ones. In fact, let them have technological tools and services like Ashley Madison to make it even more efficient. It’s all for the good. Yea, because we wouldn’t want people to, Gods forbid, actually work on the problems in their marriage or anything. Live up to their responsibilities, recognize a wrong, seek to atone for it and correct the situation that caused it in the first place? Nope, none of that, “KTHXBY, Next!” is preferable. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/55 "2009-01-07T18:36:58Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Yea, because we wouldn’t want people to, Gods forbid, actually work on the problems in their marriage or anything. Live up to their responsibilities, recognize a wrong, seek to atone for it and correct the situation that caused it in the first place? Nope, none of that, “KTHXBY, Next!” is preferable. :rolleyes: I didn’t say we wouldn’t want them to do the right thing, but it’s not worth our energy of any kind (including expressing disapproval) to try to prevent them from doing the wrong thing. People fuck around. People get fucked around on. They always have. They always will. It’s not murder. It’s not torture. It’s not starvation. It’s not worth our expending any sort of effort disliking it if it isn’t someone whose life we have a personal stake in. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/56 "2009-01-07T19:11:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > To be honest I find it kind of vile, too, but it just goes to show you the market will meet any demand Yep, blame the **consumers** , not the businesspeople. This is the same reason I don’t feel any hostility toward the “big, evil tobacco companies” or even, yes, the Catholic church. Because if people didn’t buy their respective products they’d have been out of business long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/57 "2009-01-07T19:25:34Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I didn’t say we wouldn’t want them to do the right thing, but it’s not worth our energy of any kind (including expressing disapproval) to try to prevent them from doing the wrong thing. How does expressing disapproval prevent anything from happening? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/58 "2009-01-07T19:30:32Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s not worth our expending any sort of effort disliking it if it isn’t someone whose life we have a personal stake in. As a member of a society, you never know who’s life you’ll have a personal stake in. Maybe that girl screwed up because of her parent’s divorce for cheating will end up dating or marrying my son. Maybe that boy growing up seeing “discrete affairs” as the way to handle relationships will tear out my daughter’s heart one day. Maybe a whole generation growing up where adultery wasn’t effectively discouraged grew up to be our current state and federal legislators, and have similarly twisted ethical ideas about that. I agree it’s not worth getting out the stocks and stones, but the ethical answer just seems too obvious to me not to mention it: don’t cheat. Either break up first or be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/59 "2009-01-07T19:35:08Z")
> [@teamfujiwara](#): > > I’m not sure if I’m offended or curious, but the commercial has certainly struck a cord. Though when listening to Stern, the Ashley Madison commercial is far from the most shocking item on the air 😉 You know what? To me it kind of is. And Howard asked Eric the Midget if he could fit his whole hand inside a Bunny Ranch whore just this morning. Yes, Ashley Madison is more shocking to me than that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088/60 "2009-01-07T19:43:11Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Maybe that girl screwed up because of her parent’s divorce for cheating will end up dating or marrying my son. Maybe that boy growing up seeing “discrete affairs” as the way to handle relationships will tear out my daughter’s heart one day. There’s no “maybe” about it. The answer to all of your questions is “there’s a pretty good chance of it and there’s no way for you to know.” Yes, cheating _is_ going to directly affect you or someone you care about and there’s nothing that you or society as a whole can do to prevent it, because cheating is hard-wired into human behavior. I don’t know whether there are any reliable statistics on infidelity, but the numbers are huge and the existence of a Web site or other commercial service to help people cheat, I surmise, makes hardly any difference whatsoever. > [@](#): > > Maybe a whole generation growing up where adultery wasn’t effectively discouraged What do you mean by “effective”? In the big picture, discouragement of infidelity has never been effective. > [@](#): > > I agree it’s not worth getting out the stocks and stones, but the ethical answer just seems too obvious to me not to mention it: don’t cheat. Either break up first or be honest. And what about the approximately half of society who will cheat, regardless of what standard you set here? They’re all scum? Half of society are scum? When a large minority – and, who knows, maybe it’s even a majority – of otherwise law-abiding persons are doing something that you deem unethical, then isn’t it a waste of something (time, effort, moral condemnation) to set such an ethical standard? Better to say that people have all kinds of personality and character flaws and infidelity is just a common one while advising those close to you that it’s not a good idea to risk hurting someone you love by behaving this way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-prude-ashley-madison-com/480088.md?page=4)