# Am I a self-hating Negro?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [November 10, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141 "2002-11-10T15:04:53Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/101 "2002-11-14T06:56:44Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by gobear \*  
> \*\*  
> Check your own preconceptions. Gangsta speech, street vernacular, or whatever you choose to call it, is a lot more intricate than “24-7”. It also happens to be the speech of white, black, Latino, and Asian youth all across the US of A.
> 
> “Slang” is a weak word to descibe the various linguistic markers that denote particular ethnic, sexual, or cultural demarcations in our country. \*\*

There’s an episode of the original Star Trek where the inhabitants of the planet are living the life of America in the 1920s, the “mafia” gangster aspect of it as played up in the movies. The dialog, hand gestures, would blow you away because you would think that you’re watching a current rap video or something. Just when you think something is new, it turns out to be very old.

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**Author:** ![Blivit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Blivit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blivit)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/102 "2002-11-14T07:49:49Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Got a cite for that assertion? Or are you putting words in another man’s mouth based on what you think he should believe?
> 
> I’m also wondering how you know that it sucks to be in Africa. Ever been? It’s a big continent, you know.

Manute is currently a political exile living back in the U.S. He has spent every penny he ever earned trying to help his people in Sudan and now lives by the charity of friends and the Catholic Church. He longs to return to his home but for his efforts of humanitarianism he was accused of being a spy and was forced to flee for his life. He credits his success and good fortune in the NBA to the opportunity that our country provides for success and can only dream that someday Africa will not be such a hostile place. Manute has given many interviews and speaks frequently of the trouble in his homeland and expresses gratitude for the opportunity to play basketball in the U.S. Not for selfish reason but because it has given him the opportunity to help others. I have the greatest of respect for him.

> [@](#):
>
> Huh?
> 
> If someone else said blacks have to work twice as hard to get half as much they would be considered racist? No. If someone had said whites have to work twice as hard to get half as much, they would have been considered racist? No.

Ok. The next time I am in the market I will be sure to a black stranger “you can work twice as hard as I do and you still aren’t worth half as much”. I’ll send you the emergency room bill.

> [@](#):
>
> It is not a terrible thing to say about black people. It is the truth.

Now you say it is true. I have yet to see anything that comes even close to a 300% margin between white and black. It is not true and you know it isn’t.

> [@](#):
>
> I’m beginning to suspect you do not understand what “having to work harder to get less” means.

I know exactly what it means. The truth is that average earning power of a black American is between 10% and 20% of the average white American depending on how you tweak the stats. That is a hell of alot closer to “a little extra effort” than “twice as hard for half as much”.  
Here is some data;  
[http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit.supp.toc.htm](http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit.supp.toc.htm)

> [@](#):
>
> Since we are presuming to speak for celebrities I would venture that Mr. Bol would say it is terrible to be poor. I would also venture to say that Mr. Bol would say that it is terrible he would have to pay more for a car loan, have to sue the government for equal oportunity and still get screwed, and that he would face stiffer penalties for the same crime than a white person. and that he makes less than his white counterpart. O.K. Manute Bol probably wouldn’t be worried about that last one. Unless he has a brother who lives here.

I wouldn’t venture that on the part of Mr. Bole. I have followed his plight for a long time now and If I were to venture on his behalf, which I will not, your complaints would seem quite petty in the grand scheme of things. And as I mentioned before, he is broke. Flat broke. Flat broke and when given an opportunity to make 35K at a celebrity boxing match, he took his arthritic body into the ring with William “the refridgerator” Perry and donated every penny to a Sudanese childrens charity. He is one of the most admirable people I can think of and the last person to ever say that blacks are disadvantaged in America. He, unlike some, actually knows the meaning of the words.

> [@](#):
>
> I’ll stop whining when I no longer have a reason to whine.

I hope you enjoy whining.

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**Author:** ![beerchick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71c47a/32.png) [@beerchick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beerchick)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/103 "2002-11-14T16:24:13Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Blivit \*  
> \*\*
> 
> Ok. The next time I am in the market I will be sure to a black stranger “you can work twice as hard as I do and you still aren’t worth half as much”. I’ll send you the emergency room bill.\*\*

Why would you send me the bill? This is not what I said. I said “blacks work twice as hard to get half as much.” Not “blacks work twice as hard and are worth half as much.” Big difference.

> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Blivit \*  
> \*\*  
> Now you say it is true. I have yet to see anything that comes even close to a 300% margin between white and black. It is not true and you know it isn’t._\*

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I think you are. Let’s go slowly here–

1. A 300% margin of what, exactly?
2. I have given plenty of proof of the disparities between black and white. You have given absolutely none. Put up or shut up.  
3.It is a freakin’ figure of speech. Stop obsessing. Take a deep breath and let it go.

I will be back to address the rest of your post.

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**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/104 "2002-11-14T16:29:03Z")

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**This was not beerchick. This was Biggirl**

## quote:

## Originally posted by Blivit Ok. The next time I am in the market I will be sure to a black stranger “you can work twice as hard as I do and you still aren’t worth half as much”. I’ll send you the emergency room bill.

Why would you send me the bill? This is not what I said. I said “blacks work twice as hard to get half as much.” Not “blacks work twice as hard and are worth half as much.” Big difference.

## quote:

Originally posted by Blivit

## Now you say it is true. I have yet to see anything that comes even close to a 300% margin between white and black. It is not true and you know it isn’t.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I think you are. Let’s go slowly here–

1. A 300% margin of what, exactly?
2. I have given plenty of proof of the disparities between black and white. You have given absolutely none. Put up or shut up.  
3.It is a freakin’ figure of speech. Stop obsessing. Take a deep breath and let it go.

I will be back to address the rest of your post.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/105 "2002-11-14T17:08:37Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Blivit \*  
> \*\*  
> I know exactly what it means. The truth is that average earning power of a black American is between 10% and 20% of the average white American depending on how you tweak the stats. That is a hell of alot closer to “a little extra effort” than “twice as hard for half as much”.  
> Here is some data;  
> [http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit.supp.toc.htm](http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit.supp.toc.htm)  
> \*\*

So you do acknowledge that there is a disparity, don’t you? What’s the reason for the “little extra effort”? Let’s move away from the magnitude of the numbers and look at why there is a disparity. If you and I are equals, why should I get 10 to 20 percent (on average, though the stats allow for a number as high as 50%) less because I’m Black and you’re White?

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**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/106 "2002-11-14T17:26:05Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Blivit \*  
> \*\*
> 
> Manute is currently a political exile living back in the U.S. He has spent every penny he ever earned trying to help his people in Sudan and now lives by the charity of friends and the Catholic Church. He longs to return to his home but for his efforts of humanitarianism he was accused of being a spy and was forced to flee for his life. He credits his success and good fortune in the NBA to the opportunity that our country provides for success and can only dream that someday Africa will not be such a hostile place. Manute has given many interviews and speaks frequently of the trouble in his homeland and expresses gratitude for the opportunity to play basketball in the U.S. Not for selfish reason but because it has given him the opportunity to help others. I have the greatest of respect for him.\*\*

Um, yeah. Good for you and him. What does that have to do with minority racial politics in the US?

> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Blivit \*  
> \*\*  
> I wouldn’t venture that on the part of Mr. Bole. I have followed his plight for a long time now and If I were to venture on his behalf, which I will not, your complaints would seem quite petty in the grand scheme of things. And as I mentioned before, he is broke. Flat broke. Flat broke and when given an opportunity to make 35K at a celebrity boxing match, he took his arthritic body into the ring with William “the refridgerator” Perry and donated every penny to a Sudanese childrens charity. He is one of the most admirable people I can think of and the last person to ever say that blacks are disadvantaged in America. He, unlike some, actually knows the meaning of the words._\*

My complaints seem petty to you because of Manute Bol? You’re the one who steered this discussion towards how big or little the disparities between black and white are. I know, I know-- the poor, poor starving African children. **THIS DISCUSSION ISN’T ABOUT AFRICA OR AFRICANS**. It is about racial tensions _inside_ minority communities. Or at least it was until you came along and started yelling “Quit cher bitchin’. There’s starving people in Africa!”

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Blivit \*  
> \*\*  
> I hope you enjoy whining. \*\*

Another hope dashed.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Blivit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Blivit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blivit)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/107 "2002-11-14T17:40:10Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Why would you send me the bill? This is not what I said. I said “blacks work twice as hard to get half as much.” Not “blacks work twice as hard and are worth half as much.” Big difference.

Well you have phrased it a couple different ways.

> [@](#):
>
> If someone else said blacks have to work twice as hard to get half as much

> [@](#):
>
> It’s because in order to be thought of as half as good, blacks have to work twice has hard

In any of the above cases the ratio is 4:1 for thought, attainment, worth, whatever.

And will you please tell me if you think this is true or if it is just a phrase that you use loosely. You can’t seem to decide.

> [@](#):
>
> You are taking things much too literally.

> [@](#):
>
> However, I do not believe it is self-pity or self-loathing. It is the truth.

> [@](#):
>
> But that is neither here nor there because “twice as hard for half as much” is a figure of speech. An idiom. Not to be taken literally.

> [@](#):
>
> … It is not a terrible thing to say about black people. It is the truth

You say it is the truth. Then you say not to take it literally. ???

> [@](#):
>
> 1. A 300% margin of what, exactly?

2x = .5y This is an equation where y is 300% of x. Exactly what? I don’t know. You say it is true in “general”. You tell me.

> [@](#):
>
> 1. I have given plenty of proof of the disparities between black and white. You have given absolutely none. Put up or shut up.

I have repeatedly agreed with this from the start and have posted a government link of average wages by race, amoung other factors. I don’t dispute despairities between whites and blacks. I dispute the 4:1 margin that you suppose. You are trying to make the gap wider than it is. I didn’t make the statement. You did. You prove it if you intend to stand by it.

> [@](#):
>
> It is a freakin’ figure of speech. Stop obsessing. Take a deep breath and let it go.

Now we are back to a figure of speech. Do you stand by this as true or can you admit that it is a poor choice of words? I could be mean spirited here and throw out some “figures of speech” that you certainly would not let go. I won’t do that. Why don’t you just use your imagination.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Blivit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Blivit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blivit)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/108 "2002-11-14T17:59:36Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> So you do acknowledge that there is a disparity, don’t you? What’s the reason for the “little extra effort”? Let’s move away from the magnitude of the numbers and look at why there is a disparity.

I know why there is a despairity. It is called racism. It is the magnatude of the numbers that I take exception to here. Alot of people have suffered for a long time to try and get things right and then you have people like Biggirl who, with the turn of a phrase, put us back to 1950. Her choice of words discredits the efforts made by many people both black and white. I take exception.

> [@](#):
>
> Um, yeah. Good for you and him. What does that have to do with minority racial politics in the US?

I was hoping it might give you a different perspective. If we were to arrange the world into groups by by nationality and race and then put them in order of wealth and power, black Americans would be on the short list with a very, very long list behind. You are not the most underprivilidged group on earth as you try to make it sound. In fact you are one of the most priviledged and powerful groups in the grand scheme of things. So how does it feel to be amoung the priviledged and powerful. The teaming millions of truely oppressed people want to know.

> [@](#):
>
> My complaints seem petty to you because of Manute Bol? You’re the one who steered this discussion towards how big or little the disparities between black and white are.

No. You made this statement in the opening. Maybe you should be more careful what you say if you don’t intend to take responsibility for it or at least admit that it is not a nice thing to say.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/109 "2002-11-14T18:12:49Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Blivit \*  
> \*\*  
> I have repeatedly agreed with this from the start and have posted a government link of average wages by race, amoung other factors. I don’t dispute despairities between whites and blacks. I dispute the 4:1 margin that you suppose. You are trying to make the gap wider than it is. I didn’t make the statement. You did. You prove it if you intend to stand by it.
> 
> Now we are back to a figure of speech. Do you stand by this as true or can you admit that it is a poor choice of words? I could be mean spirited here and throw out some “figures of speech” that you certainly would not let go. I won’t do that. Why don’t you just use your imagination. \*\*

I don’t know about anyone else, but your link doesn’t give rise to any data that supports your 10-20% claim. The links are there, but there’s not capability to drill down to the data, perhaps the site has a problem today?

I see you want to argue how wide the gap is as opposed to why there is a gap in the first place. To me it sounds like you don’t have a problem with the gap as long as it isn’t too wide. To me it sounds like you’re okay with racism and discrimination in small doses.

IMO, **Biggirl** doesn’t have to prove anything to you about the what the Black experience is like, you have your mind made up and that’s okay. You want to argue the details because the things she’s talking about aren’t really close to home with you. It’s like you talking about auto racing without ever having been behind the wheel of a car. You wouldn’t have a clue about what the driver experiences, feels, or senses. Your a White person telling a Black person that things aren’t that bad as you put 1.00 in your pocket and the Black person puts .80 in theirs, even though you’ve both have done the same amount of work.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/110 "2002-11-14T18:20:59Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Manute is currently a political exile living back in the U.S. He has spent every penny he ever earned trying to help his people in Sudan and now lives by the charity of friends and the Catholic Church. He longs to return to his home but for his efforts of humanitarianism he was accused of being a spy and was forced to flee for his life. He credits his success and good fortune in the NBA to the opportunity that our country provides for success and can only dream that someday Africa will not be such a hostile place…

So long story short, you put words in another man’s mouth based on what you think he should feel. Gotcha.

> [@](#):
>
> I wouldn’t venture that on the part of Mr. Bole. I have followed his plight for a long time now and If I were to venture on his behalf, which I will not, your complaints would seem quite petty in the grand scheme of things.

You know what? _Everything_ is petty in the grand scheme of things. If evil aliens came to this planet and starting peppering the place with nuclear bombs until just about the whole world was dead, even the Holocaust would look like just a rainy day. _Especially to those who weren’t in it or personally connected to people who were._

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/111 "2002-11-14T18:25:46Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DSeid \*  
> \*\*I do not have evidence one way or the other … and neither does she. Or you. _Presuming_ the demographics was the point as it reflects an underlying bias as to what the make-up of this kind of board would be. That Blacks wouldn’t be attracted to this kind of board? That is a self-loathing stereotype methinks. \*\*

She doesn’t??? Did you miss this?

> [@](#):
>
> I thought I addressed this already, but I see that I didn’t. The reason why I assume this is a predominatly white messageboard is because: 1-- of the over 200 Dopers I have personally met only 2, Houseman and Zoltarb were black. BTW, Houseman is my husband and Zoltarb is my son. 2–Of all the hundreds more pictures I’ve seen of Dopers, there was only one other black poster…

Any wonder why **Biggirl** might get an idea of why the demographics of this board are primarily White???

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/112 "2002-11-14T18:50:46Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> That Blacks wouldn’t be attracted to this kind of board? That is a self-loathing stereotype methinks.

Funny how the only person saying this is you, **DSeid**.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Ms.Fisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Ms.Fisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms.Fisk)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/113 "2002-11-14T19:05:37Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DSeid \*  
> \*\*Do you have access to some data about the racial composition of this board that the rest of us have missed? _Or have you made a presumption about the composition of this board’s membership because of the nature of the discussions held?_ … But to presume that blacks are under-represented on this board because it is an educated intellectual pursuit may indeed be a sign of self-hate. \*\*

It is reasonable to assume that this board is mostly white. Why? Most of its member are in the States, and a majority of Americans are white. All of its members have internet access, and stats show that more whites than non-whites have internet access. Even if the board reflected the racial make-up of the States, it would still be about 15% black and a majority white.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Blivit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Blivit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blivit)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/114 "2002-11-14T20:06:11Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> So long story short, you put words in another man’s mouth based on what you think he should feel. Gotcha.

What are you talking about? I haven’t put any words into his mouth. Gotcha??? Is that what this is to you? A game of gotcha?? Childish.

> [@](#):
>
> I don’t know about anyone else, but your link doesn’t give rise to any data that supports your 10-20% claim. The links are there, but there’s not capability to drill down to the data, perhaps the site has a problem today?

So would you believe the gap to be closer to 20% or closer to 300% ? Who is being reasonable here and who is being excessive?

> [@](#):
>
> I see you want to argue how wide the gap is as opposed to why there is a gap in the first place. To me it sounds like you don’t have a problem with the gap as long as it isn’t too wide. To me it sounds like you’re okay with racism and discrimination in small doses.

To me it sounds like you are hearing what you want to hear. There is a gap. It is not OK. Racism is not Ok. Discrimination is debatable depending on the context of the discrimination. This all gets back to whether or not Biggirl is self hating. Self loathing is something measured by degrees. In small doses is may be called low self esteem. By putting forth such a large and innaccurate characterization she is making things out to be worse than they really are. All relative to the opening question. Let me say this again; blacks are disadvantaged in America, relative to whites. The disadvantage is not a 300% margin.

> [@](#):
>
> IMO, Biggirl doesn’t have to prove anything to you about the what the Black experience is like, you have your mind made up and that’s okay. You want to argue the details because the things she’s talking about aren’t really close to home with you.

No not at all. I didn’t ask Biggirl to prove anything of the sort. She volunteered all of that info in the opening. I didn’t post a question asking “what is the relative difference in output for attainment between blacks and whites?” She said blacks work twice as hard for half as much. Put up or shut up. And you say it isn’t close to home? Someone infers that because of my race I only have to work 25% as hard in comparison to blacks? That _is_ home. That is my front porch.

> [@](#):
>
> . Your a White person telling a Black person that things aren’t that bad as you put 1.00 in your pocket and the Black person puts .80 in theirs, even though you’ve both have done the same amount of work.

“things aren’t that bad” is a very relative term as you state it. I state it very specific. 300% gap? Things _are not_ that bad.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/115 "2002-11-14T20:31:44Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> She said blacks work twice as hard for half as much. Put up or shut up. And you say it isn’t close to home? Someone infers that because of my race I only have to work 25% as hard in comparison to blacks?  
> . . .  
> I state it very specific. 300% gap? Things are not that bad.

The statement “work twice as hard to get half as far” is a rather old colloquial expression that _has never been intended_ to be an expression of literal, statistical relevance. **Biggirl** has already noted that she used the phrase in its casual understanding in American speech. It was introduced into American speech no later than the 1960s and has shown up as the subtitle or synopsis of numerous books on either sex or race discrimination. (It is actually used more frequently in the area of sexual discrimination, which may indicate why **Biggirl** grabbed it for her statement.)

An insistence that an off-the-cuff phrase that is commonly understood by a majority of speakers of the language to _be_ a casual and not a definitive phrase would seem to indicate that you are either pushing an unknown (to us) agenda or that you are really unfamiliar with the language in use.

I would suggest that, since the _figurative nature_ of the meaning is not only clear to most participants but that its _figurative nature_ has already been pointed out to you, you might want to consider dropping this red herring.

Examples of the currency of that expression can be found at  
[http://www.ncsu.edu/womens\_center/library/business.html](http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center/library/business.html)  
[http://zephyr.unr.edu/community/com\_sperling\_lecture.html](http://zephyr.unr.edu/community/com_sperling_lecture.html)  
[www.mpiweb.org/resources/wli/hill.htm](http://www.mpiweb.org/resources/wli/hill.htm)  
[july-dec97/camp\_12-2.html]race relations]([www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/race\_relations/](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/race_relations/)[/url)  
[black comics]([www.guardian.co.uk/arts/columns/laughingmatters/](http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/columns/laughingmatters/) story/0,12231,807428,00.html)  
[black atheletes]([www.orlandosentinel.com/.../columnists/](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/.../columnists/) orl-sptbianchi02100202oct02,0,7841451.column?coll=orl-sports-headlines)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/116 "2002-11-14T20:33:41Z")

</div>

race relations

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/117 "2002-11-14T20:36:07Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> An insistence that an off-the-cuff phrase that is commonly understood by a majority of speakers of the language to be a casual and not a definitive phrase be treated as a statistical point for debate would seem to indicate that you are either pushing an unknown (to us) agenda or that you are really unfamiliar with the language in use.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Blivit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Blivit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blivit)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/118 "2002-11-14T20:42:17Z")

</div>

Tom, Biggirl has flip flopped between the phrase being “off the cuff” and saying that it is true. In either case, her choice of phrase is relevant to whether or not she is self loathing.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/119 "2002-11-14T21:24:52Z")

</div>

It is true in it’s colliquial sense.

Everyone but you seems to understand this.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-self-hating-negro/136141/120 "2002-11-14T21:31:24Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> Did you miss this?

**easyphil** , sorry, yes I did.

It had appeared to me that she was making the same negative self-stereotype that she accused her freind of. And I see this all the time. The attitude, even among some highly educated, high SES blacks, that such is not part of black cultural values. It plays out as reduced expectations for their own kids. In my mixed race and SES community it plays out as some upper SES black parents pulling their kids out of public school because they are afraid that blacks of lower SES will pressure their kids to not achieve, will convince them that academic success is “white”.

As to my being the only one saying something … and the point is what?

As to the make-up of America, I was clear that I was referring to relative representation.

Sorry. Trying to avoid all the nonsensical debate about whether or not racism exists, and how much exaggaration is allowable as a rhetorical device, I missed her counterpoint. She has reason to believe as she does.

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