# Am I a total schmuck? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108 "2005-07-25T20:33:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/21 "2005-07-25T23:28:00Z")
So what we’re left with is mass hostile craziness on the part of all the other drivers, in response to perfectly safe, legal and courteous maneuvers on the part of **Leviosaurus**. O.K. I guess the only alternative he has is to continue calmly on, secure in the knowledge that he is in the right and ignore the road ragers. Or cease driving in Washington State. I am attending a professional conference in Washington in October and was planning to do some driving in the countryside while there. Now I’m not so sure. If everyone except **Leviosaurus** is batshit insane, it is probably a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/22 "2005-07-25T23:29:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Driving 5 mph below the limit on a two-lane country road is not illegal or immoral. If a long line is stacking up behind such a driver, pulling over at a turnout would be nice. However it is really up to other drivers to safely pass when possible. Doing 50 in a 55 zone is no big deal. **tomndebb** ’s objection notwithstanding, I have no problem with people going 50 in a 55, so long as I can pass them. What I don’t understand is why they accelerate to 65 when I do try to pass them, and then flip me off. Personally, I’m always happy when someone passes me. I don’t go fast enough to interest the cops, but it’s always nice to know that there’s someone else to occupy smokey’s attention. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/23 "2005-07-25T23:35:58Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So what we’re left with is mass hostile craziness on the part of all the other drivers, in response to perfectly safe, legal and courteous maneuvers on the part of **Leviosaurus**. > > O.K. > I guess the only alternative he has is to continue calmly on, secure in the knowledge that he is in the right and ignore the road ragers. Or cease driving in Washington State. > > I am attending a professional conference in Washington in October and was planning to do some driving in the countryside while there. Now I’m not so sure. If everyone except **Leviosaurus** is batshit insane, it is probably a bad idea. See, that’s the thing. I personally believe that if you’re passionately convinced you’re the only sane person in the world, that in and of itself is pretty good evidence that you aren’t. Hence I started this thread as sort of a reality check if you will. I’m still hoping for someone to come in here and say “I was one of the people you passed, and we flipped you off because \_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” “Batshit insane” is far too strong a term. I’ve lived in Detroit, I’ve seen batshit insane. These guys were just miffed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/24 "2005-07-25T23:45:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve lived in Detroit, I’ve seen batshit insane. Only if you used to drive out to Bloomfield Hills or Waterford. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/25 "2005-07-25T23:54:40Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > See, that’s the thing. I personally believe that if you’re passionately convinced you’re the only sane person in the world, that in and of itself is pretty good evidence that you aren’t. Hence I started this thread as sort of a reality check if you will. I’m still hoping for someone to come in here and say “I was one of the people you passed, and we flipped you off because \_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” In that case, you stand a much better chance of a direct response if you write a letter or an op-ed piece for the largest newspaper in the area. The lack of anonymity with such an approach may be troubling, but if the other drivers were merely miffed, they probably won’t come by to sugar your gas tank or egg your home or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/26 "2005-07-26T00:07:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I am attending a professional conference in Washington in October and was planning to do some driving in the countryside while there. Now I’m not so sure. If everyone except **Leviosaurus** is batshit insane, it is probably a bad idea. Washington is kind of a weird state. We’re like five or six entirely distinct subgroups crammed into a vaguely square shape with a long wormy bite out of it. So… define “countryside.” East of Seattle, between the city and the Cascades? Olympic Peninsula, away from the coast? East of the Cascades? South of Puget Sound, from Olympia to Vancouver? Some areas are definitely worse than others for what the OP is complaining about, and the space he specifically describes (I’m guessing westward from Forks) is probably the worst. Except Okanagon. Those guys are space aliens, man. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![VegemiteMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/df788c/32.png) [@VegemiteMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VegemiteMoose)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/27 "2005-07-26T00:22:57Z")
Hi **Leviosaurus**. It seems a little strange that you would get such a unanimous response to supposedly safe, sane driving. The only thing I can think of is that your perception of what you are doing differs from those around you. For instance, what do you consider tailgating to be in terms of distance behind the other vehicle? [Here’s](http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section2b2.htm#distance) 's what the Ontario Driver’s Handbook suggests. I know around my neck of the woods a lot of people think one car length at highway speeds is okey-dokey, which pisses me off. Or did you move up and pull out a bit on the other vehicles a few times to check if it was safe to pass? This _could_ be construed as impolite or aggressive. The only time I’ve had people flash their lights at me was from oncoming traffic - either to indicate that my brights were still on (at night) or that there was a radar trap coming up. [Here’s](http://www.caa.ca/e/news-issues/btw/2001/btw-01-03-08.shtml) an article in which the people polled identified light flashing among aggresive behaviours. > [@](#): > > An aggressive driver cannot be recognized by outward physical appearance, so motorists should be aware of and avoid the types of behaviours that are considered aggressive. In a recent survey, CAA members identified tailgating, flashing lights, honking horns, rude gestures, cutting people off, speeding, running red lights and frequent lane changing as aggressive behaviours. I’ve never had anyone flash their lights from behind to indicate passing. I understand that it can mean that, I’ve never seen it personally though. If it isn’t well known or commonly used were you drive then I think it’s likely to be taken differently than you meant. From your OP it certainly doesn’t sound as though you are meaning to piss people off, so these are some reasons why your behaviour **might** be seen as aggressive or rude. Did you go through any construction zones? I’ve found people’s tempers seem to be very high immediatley after slow downs due to construction. Other than that, maybe you just had a really bad stretch of idiots. Don’t let them get to you and drive safely. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/28 "2005-07-26T00:23:30Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > To answer what some of you have asked, no, I wasn’t tailgating. I don’t like to be tailgated, so I don’t do it to others. I flashed my lights at a couple of really slow folks, but for the rest I just waited for a space and passed them. You don’t need to tailgate when you have a supercharger. It seems possible that the sorts of drivers that define “safe driving speed” as 5-10 miles below the speed limit might also define “safe following distance” as quite a bit further than the standard 2 seconds. Perhaps, when in Rome and all that, you could allow a longer following distance until you are ready to pass, just as a sop to local customs. It’s worth trying to see if it changes things. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/29 "2005-07-26T00:30:08Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Some areas are definitely worse than others for what the OP is complaining about, and the space he specifically describes (I’m guessing westward from Forks) is probably the worst. I’m guessing you mean “Westward _towards_ Forks”, since there’s only about [seven miles of dry land](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=forks,+wa&ll=47.964181,-124.526253&spn=0.154404,0.287018&hl=en) between Forks and the Ocean. The scary thing is, even if you \*did \* mean westward of Forks, you were right on… that happens to be exactly where I was. Were you out there too or something? If you were with the lot from the next campsite telling us to quiet down, sorry (again). We were playing with my camera, doing nighttime [light tricks](http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwAAAHAWVEKnlXgEFb05oSqLdSiF9otqZCpLf5iyifmSRqIOvN082c0696!U7eqH08m5TBbnD3EeKWQ*qHoiJNBNv8tOMlYuqWhCYp!7DlOwPz5dBFPVOQ/IMG_2711.JPG?dc=4675532284963745543). ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/30 "2005-07-26T00:41:31Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > It seems possible that the sorts of drivers that define “safe driving speed” as 5-10 miles below the speed limit might also define “safe following distance” as quite a bit further than the standard 2 seconds. Perhaps, when in Rome and all that, you could allow a longer following distance until you are ready to pass, just as a sop to local customs. It’s worth trying to see if it changes things. You know, this definitely makes sense. I was generally six car lengths back or so, but those folks might have thought that was just too darn close. Of course, in Port Angeles, everybody tailgates everybody else like there’s a magnetic attractor between their bumpers, but nobody said people had to be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/31 "2005-07-26T01:04:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > … the slower driver must use a turnout _if_ it safe to pull off the road - **not the case when being tailgated**. (bolding mine) I have to call bullshit on this. Every time one of these threads comes along, someone in the nervous-nelly/I-don’t-like-to-be-passed-or-yield camp trots out something along the lines of “it’s unsafe to slow down and/or pull over if you’re being tailgated”. This is pure horeshit. Slowing down gradually is easy and safe, and it’s probably the best course of action anyway, because if someone is so close that you can’t brake suddenly, it’s unsafe to continue driving in that situation, period. “He’s so close I **can’t** get out of the way” is an excuse to be obstinate while pretending that you’re innocently just concerned about safety. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/32 "2005-07-26T01:15:35Z")
I hate, hate, hate having lights flashed at me - but I don’t mind being passed, generally\*. If you think I’m driving too slowly, go around. I usually don’t care. I don’t speed up to keep people from passing. I don’t try and block people. But I HATE having lights flashed and being tailgated. That’s just rude for the sake of being a jackass. \*I do mind being passed when someone is doing it unsafely - and I’ve seen more than one out of state car pass a line of cars on a bendy, two-lane road with double-yellow lines that curves through the middle of the rain forest. There simply isn’t enough visibility to do that safely. But that doesn’t seem to be at all what the OP was talking about. But even still, I don’t honk or flip poeple off. That would be rude of me. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/33 "2005-07-26T01:28:18Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I hate, hate, hate having lights flashed at me - but I don’t mind being passed, generally\*. If you think I’m driving too slowly, go around. I usually don’t care. I don’t speed up to keep people from passing. I don’t try and block people. But I HATE having lights flashed and being tailgated. > > That’s just rude for the sake of being a jackass. > > \*I do mind being passed when someone is doing it unsafely - and I’ve seen more than one out of state car pass a line of cars on a bendy, two-lane road with double-yellow lines that curves through the middle of the rain forest. There simply isn’t enough visibility to do that safely. But that doesn’t seem to be at all what the OP was talking about. But even still, I don’t honk or flip poeple off. That would be rude of me. You sound fine to me. For the record, the two folks I flashed at were going around 40-45mph in a 55mph zone, when there was no chance to pass, and they wouldn’t use the turnouts. Flashing my lights may have been even ruder than what they were doing, but I’m open to suggestions about what kind of alternatives are available under those circumstances. I’m with you on the unsafe passing. It ain’t worth risking somebody’s life for. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/34 "2005-07-26T01:28:30Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Now here’s what gets me: The driver of almost every car I passed this weekend flipped me off. At least half the drivers stomped on the gas and sped up when they saw I was passing them. People honked, got angry, red in the face, and looked like they were cursing me out. I got this over and over again. [If they are speeding up while you try to pass, they are breaking the law.](http://www.leg.wa.gov/rcw/index.cfm?fuseaction=section§ion=46.61.110) Just make sure you honk before overtaking (I’m sure the ass dragger’s will \*love \*that) > [@State of WA traffic law](#): > > Except when overtaking and passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall give way to the right in favor of the overtaking vehicle on audible signal and shall not increase the speed of his vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle. > [@](#): > > (Are you aware that delaying 5 or more cars is illegal?) I don’t see it in the legislation as posted by WSDOT, but it is an offence to [engage in an embrace while driving](http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?section=46.61.665&fuseaction=section) Obligatory BJ jokes are left as an exercise for the reader. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/35 "2005-07-26T01:35:00Z")
> [@galt](#): > > (bolding mine) I have to call bullshit on this. Every time one of these threads comes along, someone in the nervous-nelly/I-don’t-like-to-be-passed-or-yield camp trots out something along the lines of “it’s unsafe to slow down and/or pull over if you’re being tailgated”. This is pure horeshit. I have been rear-ended three times in my driving career by tailgaters. The first offender was carrying last-chance insurance for horrible drivers and it took quite awhile to collect from his obscure insurance company. Number two was following the car behind me way too closely in the rain and there was a chain reaction crash where another car was shoved into me. The most recent one a couple of years ago was speeding and too close and couldn’t adjust to my slowing to make a turn with signal on. I’ve never been in an accident due to a patient, careful driver. But I’m used to seeing posts here from the get-out-of-my-way-I-don’t-care-if-I-screw-up-my-driving-record-and-pay-double-insurance-or-kill-someone crowd. 😉 It is quite common on windy country roads to get little warning of a cross street or turnout. If there’s another car crawling up your ass you very well may not be able to safely slow for a such an opportunity. Inconsiderate, unsafe drivers of whatever stripe tend to create their own problems. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/36 "2005-07-26T02:15:44Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I have been rear-ended three times in my driving career by tailgaters. Were any of these people tailgating so close that they hit you because you simply let off the gas gradually? I’ve been hit by tailgaters, too, but it’s because I had to slow down suddenly and they weren’t paying attention. I’ve never once been in a situation where it was unsafe to ease off the gas. > [@](#): > > It is quite common on windy country roads to get little warning of a cross street or turnout. If there’s another car crawling up your ass you very well may not be able to safely slow for a such an opportunity. Absolutely true. It’s unsafe for a car to be crawling up your ass at high speeds because braking suddenly will make them run into you. And if you’re in such a situation, the prudent thing to do is to change the situation by slowing down gradually (and, if you’re so inclined, then getting out of the way), not to claim that getting out of the way is impossible. I’m not saying tailgaters aren’t annoying, what I’m saying is “he’s so close I can’t even slow down to use the turnout” is a ridiculous claim. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/37 "2005-07-26T03:02:51Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Am I a total schmuck? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/38 "2005-07-26T04:06:27Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Yes. Is that just a general “yes” or do you actually have something to add? I did start this thread looking for the other side of the story… ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/39 "2005-07-26T04:50:56Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > I’m guessing you mean “Westward _towards_ Forks”, since there’s only about [seven miles of dry land](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=forks,+wa&ll=47.964181,-124.526253&spn=0.154404,0.287018&hl=en) between Forks and the Ocean. > > The scary thing is, even if you \*did \* mean westward of Forks, you were right on… that happens to be exactly where I was. Were you out there too or something? If you were with the lot from the next campsite telling us to quiet down, sorry (again). We were playing with my camera, doing nighttime [light tricks](http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwAAAHAWVEKnlXgEFb05oSqLdSiF9otqZCpLf5iyifmSRqIOvN082c0696!U7eqH08m5TBbnD3EeKWQ*qHoiJNBNv8tOMlYuqWhCYp!7DlOwPz5dBFPVOQ/IMG_2711.JPG?dc=4675532284963745543). I love that part of Washington…Quinault Lake Lodge…Hoh Rain Forest…Lake Ozette boardwalk through the rain forest to the ocean…Crescent Lake Lodge (honeymooned there the day after my wedding)…Just love that part of the state. The locals just have their own way of driving the roads and probably don’t appreciate the outsiders trying to get them to do anything different in their lives. The town of Forks is kind of quirky (by personal experience) and people look at you funny in the restaurants as if your an American walking into a Turkish prison. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108/40 "2005-07-26T06:30:49Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I hate, hate, hate having lights flashed at me - but I don’t mind being passed, generally\*. If you think I’m driving too slowly, go around. I usually don’t care. I don’t speed up to keep people from passing. I don’t try and block people. But I HATE having lights flashed and being tailgated. > > That’s just rude for the sake of being a jackass. ok heres a newsflash for everyone in the entire country (America that is) flashing lights when you are blocking traffic from passing is a fucking COMMON way to ask you to move over or pick up the pace. every civilised nation on the damn planet recognises this. unless of course you happen to live in America where flashing lights at your slow driving in the fucking passing lane means “your mother is a whore and she gave my entire highschool football League a freebie over the weekend you stupid ignorant fuck” dont like people flashing their lights at you? try driving like your head is turned on for a change, dont hold up traffic and dont drive in the passing lanes when you are clearly moving to slow for traffic flow or conditions. and the greater Seattle area sucks arse traffic wise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-total-schmuck/314108.md?page=3)