# Am I as safe from Lightning while operating a Backhoe as I am sitting in a Car?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 10, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533 "2011-07-10T19:04:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/1 "2011-07-10T19:04:31Z")
The question is simple: Am I as safe from Lightning while operating a [Backhoe](http://www.malaysia-tractors.com/img/backhoe/backhoe-2.JPG)as I am while sitting in a car?
Couple reasons why I ask - lately we have been getting slammed by large lightning storms up here in the Rockies, I am considering buying a backhoe to work on projects I have at home, and to help friends, and move snow etc…but with these storms in the summer I am wondering how safe they are. To me, my rationale says it would be just like a [Faraday Cage](http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/343205/530wm/T1940337-Van_de_Graaff_generator_Faraday_cage,_Boston-SPL.jpg) [ever been to the Boston Museum of Science?] and if struck the lightning would hit some of the conductible material first and not my head. However, I am not an expert by any means so if I am setting myself up for a Darwin Award then I’d like to know.
I am not planning on using this machine during storms, but up here they come about in a matter of minutes. I would certainly get out of the backhoe and to safety, but I’d like to know the science behind it first.
Any ideas?
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### Author:  [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/2 "2011-07-10T19:28:05Z")
If it has a full roll cage, it would look like a Faraday cage to me. I once had a job where the customers included the operators of the cranes at the local scrap yard. They were terrified of lightening and took shelter at the first sign of a storm.
Faraday cages are grounded. I am not sure a back hoe on rubber tires and the bucket in dry soil would be.
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### Author:  [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/3 "2011-07-10T19:38:16Z")
> [@thelabdude](#):
>
> If it has a full roll cage, it would look like a Faraday cage to me. I once had a job where the customers included the operators of the cranes at the local scrap yard. They were terrified of lightening and took shelter at the first sign of a storm.
>
> Faraday cages are grounded. I am not sure a back hoe on rubber tires and the bucket in dry soil would be.
True, and I think that is what I am looking for - is the backhoe even grounded?
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### Author:  [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/4 "2011-07-10T19:41:21Z")
lightning bolts split and take many simultaneous paths, there is chance that a path could be through you. a roll cage is not a Faraday Cage.
from the outdoor safety perspective, if you can hear thunder then you can be struck by lightning. people have been struck out of the blue. people often only take caution much closer. though in a recent rain storm where i could faintly hear thunder and see no lightning a bolt did strike my power utility company line and blow their fuse closest to me, no other close lightning that i could see during the whole storm.
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### Author:  [@Diver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diver)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/5 "2011-07-10T20:11:48Z")
A Faraday cage does not have to be grounded. Lighting can strike it and jump to ground.
Cars and airplanes are not grounded and they still protect the occupants.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/6 "2011-07-10T21:18:08Z")
It seems to me that if you planted the bucket in the ground it would give a nice fat metal path for the electricity to follow that’s much lower resistance than your body.
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### Author:  [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/7 "2011-07-11T00:14:47Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:6, topic:588533”]
It seems to me that if you planted the bucket in the ground it would give a nice fat metal path for the electricity to follow that’s much lower resistance than your body.
[/QUOTE]
If the backhoe in question happens to have a fully enclosed cab, I’m of the opinion that you would be as safe inside of it, as you would be in an automobile.
If we’re talking about an open roll cage then I wouldn’t want to take the chance.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/8 "2011-07-11T00:33:28Z")
Professional crane operators quickly skedaddle out of the chair when lightning approaches, and I daresay multi million dollar cranes have better electrical protection than your backhoe. I would suggest you do the same.
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### Author:  [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/9 "2011-07-11T00:37:44Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#):
>
> If the backhoe in question happens to have a fully enclosed cab, I’m of the opinion that you would be as safe inside of it, as you would be in an automobile.
>
> If we’re talking about an open roll cage then I wouldn’t want to take the chance.
Sadly the one I’d buy is open. And I wouldn’t risk it anyway. I’d sooner leave it at a friends and walk home than stay digging
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### Author:  [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/10 "2011-07-11T01:07:37Z")
An observation I’ve made is that all the “you’re safe in your car” advice I’ve heard/read never has a caveat for convertibles. My understanding of the car acting as a faraday cage is that this wouldn’t work without any metal in the roof. Do they just not mention this because so few people drive convertibles, or is the lighting still most likely to hit the metal parts of the car and bypass humans?
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### Author:  [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/11 "2011-07-11T01:25:09Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#):
>
> An observation I’ve made is that all the “you’re safe in your car” advice I’ve heard/read never has a caveat for convertibles.
In the several threads here where it’s come up, someone always mentions it. You need to stop spending time elsewhere… 😛
A convertible has metal framing holding the cloth roof (the one’s I’ve owned, anyway). That will provide some protection. I believe you’d be _safer_ in a regular sedan than in a convertible, but if the choice is convertible or open air, get in the car.
Likewise, for the OP, I think he’d be safer in an enclosed backhoe cab than in the open, but would be better off seeking better shelter.
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### Author:  [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/12 "2011-07-11T02:12:45Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:6, topic:588533”]
It seems to me that if you planted the bucket in the ground it would give a nice fat metal path for the electricity to follow that’s much lower resistance than your body.
[/QUOTE]
At lightning level voltages, everything is a conductor. Heck, the bolt just jumped through five miles of open air. It doesn’t need a good metal connection to find a path to ground.
Also, it is a common misconception that electricity only follows the path of least resistance. Electricity follows ALL paths. It’s just that more current flows on the paths of least resistance.
In the specific case of a backhoe, lightning could easily hit the metal, arc to the person in the seat, arc back to another piece of metal, and then follow the metal into the ground. Lightning does stuff like that all the time. You also only need a tiny fraction of the lightning bolt to kill you. The main bolt could follow the metal into the ground, but a tiny bolt could arc off to the side. Even if it carries only 1 percent of the lightning bolt’s total energy, it still has more than enough energy in it to kill you.
> [@JBDivmstr](#):
>
> If the backhoe in question happens to have a fully enclosed cab, I’m of the opinion that you would be as safe inside of it, as you would be in an automobile.
Depending on the size of the glass, I’d tend to agree with that. Larger windows will give you slightly more risk though.
> [@JBDivmstr](#):
>
> If we’re talking about an open roll cage then I wouldn’t want to take the chance.
I’d agree with that, too.
> [@GreasyJack](#):
>
> An observation I’ve made is that all the “you’re safe in your car” advice I’ve heard/read never has a caveat for convertibles. My understanding of the car acting as a faraday cage is that this wouldn’t work without any metal in the roof. Do they just not mention this because so few people drive convertibles, or is the lighting still most likely to hit the metal parts of the car and bypass humans?
The national weather service’s web site mentions it in several places (I just checked). Here is one of them: (from here: [http://www.weather.gov/os/lightning/myths.htm](http://www.weather.gov/os/lightning/myths.htm) )
> [@](#):
>
> Myth: Rubber tires on a car protect you from lightning by insulating you from the ground.
> Fact: Most cars are safe from lightning, but it is the metal roof and metal sides that protect you, NOT the rubber tires. Remember, convertibles, motorcycles, bicycles, open-shelled outdoor recreational vehicles and cars with fiberglass shells offer no protection from lightning. When lightning strikes a vehicle, it goes through the metal frame into the ground. Don’t lean on doors during a thunderstorm.
It should also be mentioned that T-top roofs also offer very little protection.
It should also be mentioned that it is possible for lightning to come through the car window. In the two cases I have read about, one woman was knitting in the passenger seat and lighting melted the tip of one of her knitting needles, and in the other case the lightning went through the front window of a parked van (no one was in it at the time). Judging from the pictures, the lightning went through the windshield near the bottom of it (maybe a foot or so up from the bottom edge) then arced to the steering column, and from there made its way down through the dashboard. At least that’s where all of the burn marks were.
Lightning can also go through house windows. Fortunately, lightning through a window (either car or house) is pretty rare.
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### Author:  [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/13 "2011-07-11T08:07:07Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> Depending on the size of the glass, I’d tend to agree with that. Larger windows will give you slightly more risk though.
Not that I’m doubting you, in any way, but why would more window area, incur more risk? IIRC, glass is a good electrical insulator, I would think that it would prevent errant “side bolts”(?) from seeking you out as a path to ground, since it is already moving through the metal frame of the cab/roll cage. 😕
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### Author:  [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/14 "2011-07-11T12:49:50Z")
I thinnk if an electrical discharge is coming towards you, the closer some nice conductive metal, the more likely it would be to be diverted. Bigger window, less chance of being diverted.
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### Author:  [@olefin32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olefin32)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/15 "2011-07-11T21:18:03Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#):
>
> Am I as safe from Lightning while operating a [Backhoe](http://www.malaysia-tractors.com/img/backhoe/backhoe-2.JPG)as I am while sitting in a car?
I’ll only comment on “safe from lighting as I am while sitting in a car.”
We know a brother and sister that were killed when lighting stuck their pick-up truck!
First time I’ve heard of it but proves vehicles are not lighting proof.
I also will say, I wouldn’t be on a backhoe if it’s lighting.
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### Author:  [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/16 "2011-07-13T20:30:24Z")
> [@thelabdude](#):
>
> I thinnk if an electrical discharge is coming towards you, the closer some nice conductive metal, the more likely it would be to be diverted. Bigger window, less chance of being diverted.
Is your statement based on the assumption that the window is _ **open** _? :dubious:
In that instance, I’m inclined to agree. I was thinking more along the lines of a cab with _ **fixed / closed** _ windows, in which case, I still stand by my reasoning.
Not that I’m willing to actually _ **test** _ that theory, mind you.😃
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### Author:  [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/17 "2011-07-13T20:32:33Z")
> [@olefin32](#):
>
> I’ll only comment on “safe from lighting as I am while sitting in a car.”
>
> We know a brother and sister that were killed when lighting stuck their pick-up truck!
> First time I’ve heard of it but proves vehicles are not lighting proof.
> I also will say, I wouldn’t be on a backhoe if it’s lighting.
Do you happen to know whether the windows of the truck were open, or closed? 😕
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### Author:  [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/18 "2011-07-13T21:03:39Z")
As I said earlier in the thread, lightning can come through a closed window. Glass may be an insulator, but so is air, and lightning already jumped through 5 miles of that.
That said, lightning does seem to be less likely to go through a window if it is closed. A lot of cars get struck by lightning, and it is fairly rare that the lightning ever goes through the window. I’ve seen a lot of pictures of lightning damaged cars and I’ve only seen one where the bolt went through the window.
The national weather service keeps a list of everyone killed by lightning, but the online lists only go back to 2006. There isn’t anyone between 2006 and 2011 that was in a car. There was a 15 year old girl killed in a house in April of 2006. The NWS data says she was “in house/by window” but it doesn’t say whether the window was open or closed at the time.
The statistics are here, in case you are interested:
[http://www.weather.gov/os/lightning/statistics.htm](http://www.weather.gov/os/lightning/statistics.htm)
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### Author:  [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/19 "2011-07-13T21:24:09Z")
Just found this:
> **[Lightning strike injures Erin Moran, 10, in Merthyr](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-13341974)**
>
> A 10-year-old girl struck by lightning while at the window of her home in Merthyr Tydfil amazes doctors with her speedy recovery.
It’s a story about a 10 year old girl who was struck by lightning through a closed window last May. She survived and actually went to school the next day. She has a “snowflake” scar on her shoulder and a dot on her foot that mark the entry and exit points of the bolt.
> [@](#):
>
> A fire officer at the scene said he saw a mark on the frame of the double-glazed window.
>
> “It actually cracked an upper window of a double-glazed unit and caused an entry and exit point,” said Andy Methven, from the fire service investigation team.
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### Author:  [@olefin32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olefin32)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-as-safe-from-lightning-while-operating-a-backhoe-as-i-am-sitting-in-a-car/588533/20 "2011-07-13T23:17:24Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#):
>
> Do you happen to know whether the windows of the truck were open, or closed? 😕
No, I don’t know that. Not sure of the year but it was around 1980 near Greenwood, Arkansas.
**engineer\_comp\_geek,**
Thanks for the interesting link!
Lighting can do strange things.
It struck an oak tree in neighbors yard, followed one of it’s roots about 10 feet to the tiny tracer wire buried by the plastic gas line. Blew the line out of the ground, all the way to the house, street and blew a hole in the street . You could hardly tell the tree had been stuck, in fact it didn’t kill it. Sure wrecked his yard and street.
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