# Am I being scammed? (by person who previously dealt legitimately with me) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106 "2010-12-14T12:23:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/21 "2010-12-14T20:23:17Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Is this even legal? I thought the whole purpose of incorporating (I’m assuming you’ve incorporated) is to protect your personal assets from business debt. What Joey is talking about is a negotiation with his supplier. Yes supplier’s can require that a personal guaranty be put in place before they will sell to you on credit (e.g. payment terms as opposed to payment upfront). Supplier’s can request lot’s of things to reduce the risk of selling to you. You can always say no and buy from someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/22 "2010-12-14T21:42:04Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Is this even legal? I thought the whole purpose of incorporating (I’m assuming you’ve incorporated) is to protect your personal assets from business debt. That’s why I specified Sole Proprietorship. I don’t know how a personal guarantee interacts with an LLC. > [@Wilbo523](#): > > What Joey is talking about is a negotiation with his supplier. Yes supplier’s can require that a personal guaranty be put in place before they will sell to you on credit (e.g. payment terms as opposed to payment upfront). Supplier’s can request lot’s of things to reduce the risk of selling to you. You can always say no and buy from someone else. We actually almost never sign the personal guarantee. In fact, we go a step further and put a big X through that section of the credit app. Very very few vendors will deny giving you credit based on not signing that. They all try, some will even threaten to not sell to you, but most back down when they realize they’re about to lose a potential customer. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/23 "2010-12-14T21:56:15Z")
Seconding the non-paranoid posts above. This is all information that’s printed on your checks; wire transfers are, IMHO, both faster and more secure than sending paper checks through the mail. ---
**Author:** ![Juggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/juggler/32/3194_2.png) [@Juggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juggler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/24 "2010-12-14T22:48:28Z")
Another vote for not a scam. I guess the buyer is European? It’s all standard, non-scammy information used all the time in Europe. Paypal is tough to work with for a gambling/affiliate company since they (Paypal) are unpredictable and have the same type of personal support as Google. I use [this site](http://www.swift.com/bsl/) to find BIC. If you use a small local bank you may need to give a routing bank info but you should be able to get the full info from your bank. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/25 "2010-12-14T23:20:25Z")
I don’t understand the “non-paranoids” who don’t get that **they can take money out of your account with that same information**. Why in the world would you give out that information if you didn’t have to? It doesn’t matter whether the site is legit or not, doing so is just financially stupid. Email them back, and ask for any other method of transferring money. If they are legitimate, and really want your business, they have no reason to decline. Heck, I’d be surprised if they don’t have a business credit card. You know, those things that have tons of protections built in. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/26 "2010-12-14T23:32:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t understand the “non-paranoids” who don’t get that **they can take money out of your account with that same information**. Why in the world would you give out that information if you didn’t have to? It doesn’t matter whether the site is legit or not, doing so is just financially stupid. BigT: how? In many parts of the world, it’s commonplace to provide that information to clients and service providers. There’s no security risk because there is no way to withdraw money from a bank account using only that information - any withdrawal requires a PIN, or an online banking login, or a verified signature. It’s not uncommon for Australian online stores to publish their bank account details, [for example](http://www.scorptec.com.au/help/payment/). I put all of that information on every invoice I send. It’s no different from providing a PayPal account address. Are American banks really that insecure? Can money really be withdrawn by anyone who knows the account name and number? ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/27 "2010-12-14T23:42:41Z")
(Missed the edit window. To clarify: I have no association with that store, it’s just the first example I found.) ---
**Author:** ![Juggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/juggler/32/3194_2.png) [@Juggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juggler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/28 "2010-12-14T23:47:42Z")
And how is njtt going to accept the business credit card? I think Moneybookers is available for US residents, the poker site should have an account there. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/29 "2010-12-14T23:52:27Z")
> [@tellyworth](#): > > Are American banks really that insecure? Can money really be withdrawn by anyone who knows the account name and number? I’m wondering the same thing. Here in France there is no way for anyone to withdraw money from a bank account using your account number/bic/iban, unless you have signed a paper to that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/30 "2010-12-15T00:35:20Z")
You’ll be saving in PayPal fees, what’s not to like? The advertiser is the one taking risks in my opinion. What if you renege on the agreement or your site goes offline for an extended period of time for any reason? He will have no recourse other than begging for a refund, or suing I suppose. I sure wouldn’t do a yearly payment in these circumstances. Are wire transfers really this mysterious to Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Juggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/juggler/32/3194_2.png) [@Juggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juggler)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/31 "2010-12-15T00:57:34Z")
Americans pay for receiving wire transfers Pedro. Their system is very different from our banking system. Forgot to add a minor detail: Your bank might give you an ABA number but the poker site has no use for that. ABA is only used internally in the US. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/32 "2010-12-15T02:35:24Z")
So tell me, people who think the info requested for a wire transfer is enough to steal your money, do any of you use direct deposit? Because it’s the same information (which incidentally, your employer takes from a voided check). Or do you really think the _only_ thing stopping your employer and other businesses (or anybody you ever give a check to) from stealing all your money is their reputation and not the bank itself? If it were _that_ easy to “wire money out” of an account, nobody would risk using checks ever, for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/33 "2010-12-15T03:03:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t understand the “non-paranoids” who don’t get that **they can take money out of your account with that same information**. No they can’t. It is not possible to take money out of someone else’s bank account simply by having knowledge of the basic identification details of that account. It is unutterable nonsense (although admittedly a persistent urban myth). Do you really think that banks will give someone’s money to anyone else who knows the mere identification information for the account, with no security information whatever? How could that possibly be the case? You think the entire banking system works purely on trust, with anyone who is given the details necessary to _send_ money to you able to just take whatever they want instead? You think that signatures and PIN’s and other security measures are all irrelevant, because once you know the identity of an account you can just take what you like out of it? Sweep accounts are for a different purpose: they are used (at least IME) where you are concerned that creditors (or alleged creditors) may obtain a court order injuncting any accounts that the creditor can identify as belonging to you. Consequently you never have any money in an account that can be identified as yours. Needless to say this is not an issue for most people. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/34 "2010-12-15T05:43:18Z")
There are no PINs on checking accounts in the US (other than for ATMs). Some online merchants require driver license numbers, but if I wanted to pay a bill online, like cable - I just need the account number and routing number. The accocunt has to be ach enabled, pretty much all US accounts are - I don’t about international - but Amazon, for instance, will only US accounts. [http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=15399401#info](http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=15399401#info) > [@](#): > > What information do I need to provide? > In order to use “Checking Account” as a payment option, you will be asked to supply: > the bank routing number (also known as the ABA code) > the account number (the account must be an ACH-enabled checking account at a bank branch located in the U.S.; if you’re unsure whether your account is ACH-enabled, please contact your bank) > the name and the address of the principal account holder > the principal account holder’s valid U.S. driver’s license number (or state-issued ID number) and the issuing state > **[How to Pay by Check](https://www.applyweb.com/documentation/check.html)** [http://www.aa.com/i18n/reservations/paymentOptions/electronicChecks.jsp](http://www.aa.com/i18n/reservations/paymentOptions/electronicChecks.jsp) Yes, someone that you write a check to has this info, and so does your employer - but people who pay you by check do not. And, on the internets, it make sense to be a little cautious. I just don’t see what the downside to asking for a check is. If they say no, then you can consider giving out the bank information. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/35 "2010-12-15T06:05:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Direct debit fraud > On 7 January 2008, Jeremy Clarkson found himself the subject of direct debit fraud after publishing his bank account and sort code details in his column in The Sun to make the point that public concern over the 2007 UK child benefit data scandal was unnecessary. He wrote, “All you’ll be able to do with them is put money into my account. Not take it out. Honestly, I’ve never known such a palaver about nothing”. Someone then used these details to set up a £500 direct debit to the charity Diabetes UK. In his next Sunday Times column, Clarkson wrote, “I was wrong and I have been punished for my mistake.″[3] Under the terms of the direct debit guarantee, the payment should have been returned. It is not known whether Diabetes UK have honoured their obligation > **[Direct debit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit)** > > A direct debit or direct withdrawal is a mandated financial transaction whereby a payer authorizes a payee to draw varying recurring amounts directly from the payer’s bank account, commonly used for billing utilities, loans, and subscriptions. Formally, the organisation that calls for the funds ("the payee") instructs their bank to collect (i.e., debit) an amount directly from another's ("the payer's") bank account designated by the payer and pay those funds into a bank account designated by t Di... ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/36 "2010-12-15T06:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Direct debit fraud at an all-time high; Bacs challenges figures > Over 97,000 Brits have fallen victim to criminals setting up fraudulent direct debits from their accounts, with this number set to escalate over the next three years, according to research from insurance outfit LV=. > **[Direct debit fraud at an all-time high; Bacs challenges figures](https://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=22028)** > > Over 97,000 Brits have fallen victim to criminals setting up fraudulent direct debits from their accounts, with this number set to escalate over the next three years, according to research from insurance outfit LV=. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/37 "2010-12-15T06:47:09Z")
As they’re asking for a SWIFT code it’s evident that they are not based in whatever country OP is in, since SWIFT codes are only used for international wires. Were it domestic, the ABA would be sufficient. International checks are very hard to negotiate in the US, most banks preferring to send them for collection, meaning you don’t get the cash until they do. And they ask for a pretty hefty fee as well, some upwards of $100. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/38 "2010-12-15T07:43:39Z")
The Clarkson story does not say what else the person who set up the fraudulent transfer faked to effect the transfer. The fact remains that just having account identification details is not enough. If someone is going to forge security information to get money from a bank then they can do that in many ways. Bank fraud occurs through checks all the time, and Paypal users get ripped off too. Further, as the Wiki article notes, this sort of fraud is subject to a guarantee scheme which means it is (with the exception possibly of some fees) the bank’s problem, not the customer’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/39 "2010-12-15T08:33:28Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The Clarkson story does not say what else the person who set up the fraudulent transfer faked to effect the transfer. The fact remains that just having account identification details is not enough. If someone is going to forge security information to get money from a bank then they can do that in many ways. Bank fraud occurs through checks all the time, and Paypal users get ripped off too. Further, as the Wiki article notes, this sort of fraud is subject to a guarantee scheme which means it is (with the exception possibly of some fees) the bank’s problem, not the customer’s. All you need to set up a Direct Debit from a UK bank account is the basic information we’re talking about here - the point is that Direct Debit has built in security measures: -Not just anyone can receive a Direct Debit transaction, they have to be set up within the scheme as a Service User -The scheme incorporates a guarantee whereby the sender of funds can dispute a payment and it will be reversed without question There isn’t very much authentication built into the process of setting up individual DD instructions. If I gave you my account number, sort code and my home address, you could set up a direct debit on my behalf with that information. Unless you’re registered as a Service User (that is, a recipient of Direct Debit transactions), you still wouldn’t be able to get your hands on my money - you could only set up the debit to go somewhere else, such as a charity, as in the Clarkson case. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106/40 "2010-12-15T09:37:08Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > There are no PINs on checking accounts in the US (other than for ATMs). Some online merchants require driver license numbers, but if I wanted to pay a bill online, like cable - I just need the account number and routing number. The accocunt has to be ach enabled, pretty much all US accounts are - I don’t about international - but Amazon, for instance, will only US accounts. Ah, yes, I’d forgotten about that. [Examples of ACH fraud](http://www.bankinfosecurity.com/articles.php?art_id=1469). Interesting that other countries don’t seem to have the same problem in their ACH networks - I suspect because ACH is normally used only for recurring bill payments. In your cable bill example, the police know where to knock. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-being-scammed-by-person-who-previously-dealt-legitimately-with-me/564106.md?page=3)