# Am I Chiding, Scolding, Discussing in a Friendly Way, or Itchin for a Fight? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948 "2008-04-18T22:58:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/1 "2008-04-18T22:58:48Z")
Here’s a (completely anonymized) copy of an email I have sent to a person I work with at one of my jobs. I think you do not need to know the context to get the general gist of the sentiment, but I can supply further details if you like. I am trying to navigate the dangerous channels that cut their path between chiding, scolding, friendly philosophically-styled discussion, and fightin’ words. How have I done? Why is this in the pit? Because truth be told, this person is one of the few people IRL who ever make me want to say _curse words_. Out _loud!_. :eek: 😛 (Strangely, he’s also one of my favorite people, and that is meant in the most genuine sense possible. I _like_ the guy. He’s just such a _fucker_ sometimes. But always in an interesting way that makes you think. Anyway I’ve said too much.) (The real “chiding” portion is the final paragraph, btw.) > [@the email](#): > > Hi —, > > From your email to me: > > \> I am sorry that I did not make myself clear. It seems that, as much as I > \> try to do that, people always read in my words something other than what I > \> say. What I said, and meant, is: (…) > > But as you know, when interpreting an utterance, we must ask not only “What does the sentence uttered mean” but also “Why would s/he make that utterance in that way, at that time, in that situation?” The answer to the second question often gives a better clue as to what the speaker intended to communicate than does an answer to the first question taken literally and taken by itself. > > The sentence you uttered did indeed mean what you say it meant. However I naturally asked myself the second question. For you had uttered a declarative sentence, which by default is intended to inform—yet it was implausible to think you intended to inform us of the fact you were reporting, since you had already so informed us. This kind of thing must put one in a mind to discover extra-semantic clues to the intended communication of the speaker. So to discover what you intended to accomplish by your utterance, I looked to contextual clues—in particular, this time, the manner of your speech, and your body language, came to seem important. Your manner seemed to include a note of frustration. You even seemed just a bit frantic about the matter. But why would you have been frustrated and even a bit frantic if you had not expected already to have seen at least some of the results of our deliberations? Certainly, nothing you had said meant, literally, that we _should_ have shown you some of these results yet. But I was at a loss to discover any other explanation for your action. And so I acted on the hypothesis that, for whatever reason, it was important to you to see the schedule at a time sooner than the deadline you had given us. I knew I did not have the power to give you a definitive schedule, however I also knew that the definitive schedule was going to be identical in content to the schedule I _could_ give you. As you seemed (by my hypothesis) to have some use for this information, I decided to send it to you. > > From my many interactions with you, (which are, by the way, enjoyable without exception, even when difficult,) and from (edited for anonymization), I have gathered that you certainly need to be taught nothing about the pragmatics that surround the practice of utterance and the difficult relation between intended communication and semantic meaning. It is for this reason that I find some claims you occasionally make—claims not to understand how others fail to understand you—somewhat inexplicable. > > ## Best regards, -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/2 "2008-04-18T23:49:46Z")
I don’t see how you could be any more diplomatic about it. I tend to be on the confrontational side of things but I didn’t find that at all distasteful. It seems to me, as a man, that speaking to others directly about things that they might take offense to, even in a helpful or directing way, it helps to do so in person where I might put them more at ease, even though I am a rather large and not particularly handsome man, I can often use my smile or demeanor to lighten the mood a bit. When dealing with others I always try to do so while keeping in mind they are just the same as I am. No better, no worse, this way I feel I can communicate with them on an even field. Sometimes it is difficult to do so when interacting on the internet or in written form as I tend to let my mouth get the better of me. All in all I think your on the right track and If this individual feels that you have been harsh with them I think they might be reading a little bit into it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/3 "2008-04-19T00:24:50Z")
Itching for a fight. You’re being way too convoluted and abstract, which will give him ample opportunity to misinterpret what YOU’RE saying and take offense. I would try something more direct: “Yes, I agree that literally your words could be taken to meant ‘X’. However, your manner at the time unfortunately gave me the impression that you meant ‘Y’. You seemed frustrated and, frankly, a bit frantic, and I tried to respond accordingly. Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.” Better yet, do it in person when the two of you are alone. It’s so easy to say the wrong thing in email. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/4 "2008-04-19T00:32:34Z")
Is this the normal style of communication between you, or in your place of work? Because where I work, no-one would get past the first paragraph. I think you could have said the same thing more clearly and with many fewer words. But, that’s not what you asked, so here’s my take on that: The other person is already chiding you for “reading into” his communication something that he didn’t intend. I don’t see what you said as chiding (as much as I could understand it, 'cause opacity thy name is **Frylock** ). It seems to me that you are kicking the ball back into his court, something like this: Him: You read something into it that I didn’t mean. You: Here are my valid reasons for having done that, please don’t pretend that you don’t understand how non-verbal communications work. On preview, I think \*\*Pochacco’s \*\* re-statement is pretty good. But I disagree with his conclusion that you are itching for a fight. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/5 "2008-04-19T01:26:44Z")
If this is an email for work, I’d say you sound pissy; it’s too long and it’s too wordy. If you need to communicate that badly and explain yourself that much, get up and go find that person or talk to them on the phone. I confess I didn’t read past the second paragraph. I suppose you could be joking around, but it comes across as ponderous and picayune to me. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/6 "2008-04-19T01:29:00Z")
It sounds like you are two Greek scholars fighting the war of Rhetoric, which at this point looks to be another of those Hundred Year Wars. Or possibly two Japanese samurais, going through an elaborate tea ceremony before slicing each others’ heads off. You are not chiding, scolding or discussing. You are BORING. This is seriously worthy of Bulwer-Lytton. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/7 "2008-04-19T01:34:25Z")
\*\*Frylock \*\* is a philosopher, and he is clearly talking with a colleague about conversational implicature,and how it can convey information not strictly contained in the semantic content of a sentence. So I would take that into account in assessing the abstract nature of the discussion. E.g., when I say, “Do you actually possess a brain?”, I’m not really asking for information, although that is the form of the sentence. Given that context, it seems okay to me. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/8 "2008-04-19T01:36:20Z")
The E-mail is sarcastic, unprofessional, and extremely inadvisable. You should never have sent such a communication to a co-worker, for any reason. It appears to be worded in a way to make you sound smart and imply the stupidity of the recipient. You took about two hundred words to say something that could have been said in twenty, if it had to be said at all. And if you REALLY feel it’s necessary to confront someone about a flaw in their person, have the balls to say it to their face. If someone pisses you off, avoid them or take it to their supervisor if it’s important enough. Long, condescending E-mails have the effect of making you look like an asshole. I must stress that this does not mean you, personally are an asshole - we all lose our tempers - but if someone sent me, or sent another co-worker, an E-mail like that, it’d be a pretty big check under the “Yes” colum on my Asshole Chart. People can get you pretty upset, and it’s awfully easy to write a note or E-mail that’s nastier than it needs to be, so it’s not like this is a mortal sin or anything, but it was a mistake. 1. If you’re writing an E-mail because someone pissed you off, save it without sending and review it the next day before you send it. 2. ALL business communication should be as short and as simple as possible to convey the intended message. 3. If you have to ask yourself if something is too harsh, it is. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/9 "2008-04-19T01:45:56Z")
Signed, Charles Emerson Winchester, III. ---
**Author:** ![Tabula\_Rasa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@Tabula\_Rasa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabula_Rasa)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/10 "2008-04-19T02:01:07Z")
I think John Searle would hit Frylock in the mouth if he received such a note from him…unless Frylock is John Searle. ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/11 "2008-04-19T02:25:01Z")
My main question would be: why use “uttarence” instead of “said”. I don’t know that as current lingo, and , sure, may well be ignorant of it’s proper use, so, please educate me. As said here without that knowledge, that term is stilted and dense, and puts up a wall towards facile communication. I’m all ears to hearing the reasoning as proper terms, though. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/12 "2008-04-19T02:34:45Z")
[QUOTE=elelle] My main question would be: why use “uttarence” instead of “said”. I don’t know that as current lingo, and , sure, may well be ignorant of it’s proper use, so, please educate me. As said here without that knowledge, that term is stilted and dense, and puts up a wall towards facile communication. I’m all ears to hearing the reasoning as proper terms, though. [/QUOTE] In the idiom I was writing in, “utterance” has connotations that include the idea of an _action performed using words_. “The utterance ‘such-and-such’” and “That one says ‘such-and-such’” probably do mean much the same thing, but I used “utterance” to bring to mind the notion that by saying such-and-such, one _does_ something–is attempting to _accomplish_ something. That probably wasn’t very clear. Or was it? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/13 "2008-04-19T02:40:34Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] The E-mail is sarcastic, unprofessional, and extremely inadvisable… [/QUOTE] It’s not really meant to be a professional communication, though it is in fact about an interaction that occured in a professional setting. But you’re right that I’m using a bit o’ sarcasm in the post. However, there is no way in hell anyone (me, the recipient, or anyone who knows us) would think that I am trying to show myself to be smarter than him. To try this would be utterly preposterous, and foolish besides. Still, you’re right–in a sense, I’m pretending to remind someone of the basics about a topic which this person could almost be called an expert on. It’s definitely a jab. But… he kinda deserves it. And I wasn’t trying to be acerbic or mean–I was actually trying to keep it relatively friendly. Do you think I failed? (It may be that my memory of past conversations with this guy colors my reading of the email I sent in a way that it would be difficult to convey to you.) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/14 "2008-04-19T02:41:51Z")
Keep it simple or miscommunicate. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/15 "2008-04-19T02:42:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] \*\*Frylock \*\* is a philosopher, [/quote] Not yet, not officially. 🙂 The other guy certainly is one though. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/16 "2008-04-19T02:43:24Z")
I honestly couldn’t read the whole thing. If I had received that email, I’d read the first few lines, delete it, and strike up a conversation that started something like, “Look, Einstein, just do what the fuck I told you. I didn’t hire Noam Fucking Chomsky to write computer programs/restock the shelves/change the toner/assemble widgets/whatever.” The chiding and annoying tone isn’t in the last paragraph. It starts at the word “utterance.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/17 "2008-04-19T02:44:52Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Better yet, do it in person when the two of you are alone. It’s so easy to say the wrong thing in email. [/QUOTE] That’s something I hear every now and then. I find it’s easy to say the wrong thing in person, and easy to avoid it in email. I wonder if this is a “two kinds of people in the world” phenomenon, or if I’m somehow deluding myself… I haven’t given it enough thought to be sure. 😉 -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/18 "2008-04-19T02:47:15Z")
Everyone’s right that it’s a little too wordy, by the way. I often run up against the problem that being too concise can often end up sounding terse. I tend to err on the side of non-terseness, but this in turn puts me in danger of pedantry. In this particular case, the pedantry was part of the intended effect, at least for the first part of the email. But it probably could have been done more artfully. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/19 "2008-04-19T02:49:07Z")
OK, so I looked up the finer points and definition of “utterance”, and ,got it. What I now want to know is , what was the specific problem with the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/20 "2008-04-19T03:11:42Z")
What the fuck is with the pretentious writing style there bitch? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948.md?page=2)