# Am I Chiding, Scolding, Discussing in a Friendly Way, or Itchin for a Fight? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948 "2008-04-18T22:58:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/21 "2008-04-19T03:21:08Z")
I read the whole thing, unfortunately, and what I came away with is “blowhard.” If it’s one bh to another you’ve got it down pat. I’m sure Frasier will completly understand what you’re saying Niles. ---
**Author:** ![MissGypsy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@MissGypsy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissGypsy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/22 "2008-04-19T04:19:01Z")
To quote Strunk & White: “Be concise.” ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/23 "2008-04-19T04:55:07Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] I honestly couldn’t read the whole thing. If I had received that email, I’d read the first few lines, delete it, and strike up a conversation that started something like, “Look, Einstein, just do what the fuck I told you. I didn’t hire Noam Fucking Chomsky to write computer programs/restock the shelves/change the toner/assemble widgets/whatever.” The chiding and annoying tone isn’t in the last paragraph. It starts at the word “utterance.” [/QUOTE] I was gonna say. If I got that email, I’d probably reply “TLDR” and mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/24 "2008-04-19T05:20:30Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] The chiding and annoying tone isn’t in the last paragraph. It starts at the word “utterance.” [/QUOTE] Yep. This is exactly right. The whole thing comes across as pedantic, chiding and incredibly tedious. Here’s what I would have written: [QUOTE=an alternate email] \> I am sorry that I did not make myself clear. It seems that, as much as I \> try to do that, people always read in my words something other than what I \> say. What I said, and meant, is: (…) You did say that, but you also seemed pretty frustrated by (whatever caused the frustration). I took your tone and the fact that you were repeating your request as an indication that you’d prefer I give you what I could now rather than waiting for (whatever deadline). I think your implication that I was reading meaning into your words that wasn’t there to be unfair – I tried to understand what I felt were mixed messages as best I could. [/QUOTE] Not knowing the person or the circumstances, it’s hard to get the tone right, but that’s the gist. Say what you mean without all the “nature of words and communication” blah blah. ---
**Author:** ![Charter\_Member1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Charter\_Member1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charter_Member1)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/25 "2008-04-19T13:29:34Z")
You’re the kind of person i’d roll my eyes at in person, and possibly tell you that you’re a complete fuckwit to your face. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/26 "2008-04-19T13:58:36Z")
[QUOTE=Charter Member] You’re the kind of person i’d roll my eyes at in person, and possibly tell you that you’re a complete fuckwit to your face. [/QUOTE] 😛 You’re the kind of person I really really wish would like me. Please like me. Pleeeease? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/27 "2008-04-19T14:09:29Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] 😛 You’re the kind of person I really really wish would like me. Please like me. Pleeeease? -FrL- [/QUOTE] See how you’ve improved? Direct, concise, only a little whiney. In your OP writing mode, you would have taken 4 paragraphs to get there. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/28 "2008-04-19T14:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] Signed, Charles Emerson Winchester, III. [/QUOTE] Hilarious. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/29 "2008-04-19T14:23:29Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] See how you’ve improved? Direct, concise, only a little whiney. In your OP writing mode, you would have taken 4 paragraphs to get there. [/QUOTE] Like I said, the pedantic tone in the email was intentional. (Maybe you got that already, in which case I’ve been _mini-whooshed_.) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/30 "2008-04-19T14:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] I honestly couldn’t read the whole thing. If I had received that email, I’d read the first few lines, delete it, and strike up a conversation that started something like, “Look, Einstein, just do what the fuck I told you. I didn’t hire Noam Fucking Chomsky to write computer programs/restock the shelves/change the toner/assemble widgets/whatever.” The chiding and annoying tone isn’t in the last paragraph. It starts at the word “utterance.” [/QUOTE] This was pretty much my reaction as well. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/31 "2008-04-19T14:31:15Z")
[QUOTE=Charter Member] You’re the kind of person i’d roll my eyes at in person, and possibly tell you that you’re a complete fuckwit to your face. [/QUOTE] Dont be a jackass. While I would never communicate in such a fashion and I dont have cause to speak with persons in **Frylock** s profession I assume this is normal way in which he conducts business. You get snotty and roll your eyes at me, much less work up the balls to call me fuckwit to my face, you’d be looking at the bottom of my size 14 boot up close and personal. I’m sure **Frylock** wouldn’t even consider doing so, but that doesn’t make him any less of a man, or any less deserving of the respect due a fellow human being. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/32 "2008-04-19T15:17:17Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Dont be a jackass. While I would never communicate in such a fashion and I dont have cause to speak with persons in **Frylock** s profession I assume this is normal way in which he conducts business. You get snotty and roll your eyes at me, much less work up the balls to call me fuckwit to my face, you’d be looking at the bottom of my size 14 boot up close and personal. I’m sure **Frylock** wouldn’t even consider doing so, but that doesn’t make him any less of a man, or any less deserving of the respect due a fellow human being. [/QUOTE] It would make him a **fuckwit** , though. Look, Frylock, apparently you’re a Philosophy Grad, or maybe climbing aboard tenure express (good for you!). But, there is only one possible excuse for writing like this: the guy you’re talking to always talks like this in his daily life and you’re just trying to talk, well, down to his level. I say down because this is a terrible way to communicate. Three year olds can be more expressive with a single word than this entire email. However, I’ve known some people who do this kind of thing. But if not, then remember this: any second-rate philosopher can write obscure gibberish. I’ve known English students who can scribble out huge essays at the drop of a hat because it’s all nonsense and shallow thoughts. And even when it _isn’t_ nonsense and shallowness, nobody understands a word. A great thinker, in any discipline, is probably goiong to be very accessible. Clarity of writing IS clarity of thought. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/33 "2008-04-19T15:33:01Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] Signed, Charles Emerson Winchester, III. [/QUOTE] A rare (literal) LOL for this one. Nice work. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/34 "2008-04-19T15:54:49Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] But if not, then remember this: any second-rate philosopher can write obscure gibberish. I’ve known English students who can scribble out huge essays at the drop of a hat because it’s all nonsense and shallow thoughts. [/QUOTE] **Frylock’s** missive isn’t really nonsense, as there are actual thoughts being expressed, albeit—as others have noted—in a needlessly convoluted way. **Frylock** says that the pedantry is intentional, which suggests that it’s either some kind of inside joke between them, or that he is intentionally trying to irritate his colleague. Either reason would help explain the writing style, but not the need for our peer review. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/35 "2008-04-19T15:58:44Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] It would make him a **fuckwit** , though. Look, Frylock, apparently you’re a Philosophy Grad, or maybe climbing aboard tenure express (good for you!). But, there is only one possible excuse for writing like this: the guy you’re talking to always talks like this in his daily life and you’re just trying to talk, well, down to his level. I say down because this is a terrible way to communicate. Three year olds can be more expressive with a single word than this entire email. However, I’ve known some people who do this kind of thing. But if not, then remember this: any second-rate philosopher can write obscure gibberish. I’ve known English students who can scribble out huge essays at the drop of a hat because it’s all nonsense and shallow thoughts. And even when it _isn’t_ nonsense and shallowness, nobody understands a word. A great thinker, in any discipline, is probably goiong to be very accessible. Clarity of writing IS clarity of thought. [/QUOTE] Okay, I’m honestly getting a little tired of this. As I have said, the tone of the thing is pedantic. And there are ways I could have said much the same thing in fewer words. But “obscure?” No way. “Unclear?” Absolutely not. The thing is simple enough to understand. Seriously, what in the email do you find difficult? I do use a _bit_ of jargon (“utterance” etc) but it’s hard for me to believe you can’t easily catch on. Because I’m an academic writing to an academic, I wrote according to the habit of sort of staving off objections before they are raised–clarifying points I thought he might want to find unclear, accounting for possible alternative readings of things, and so on. Some of it was probably unnecessary. Some of it was habit and first-drafty. But some of it was simply the result of my decision to use a certain tone–i.e., a tone that is pedantic in a way that is joking yet a bit pointed, as in "sigh, do I really have to explain this to you? Okay, well, _here goes_ :rolleyes: ") And to answer some of the other concerns that have been voiced in this thread, this guy’s not in some way a supervisor of mine. He’s more of a co-worker (in the context of the situation I’m discussing), and besides that, he’s a friend of mine. (Not a pal, but a friend.) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/36 "2008-04-19T16:06:33Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] but not the need for our peer review. [/QUOTE] That’s a good point. Since posting here, I’ve come to see that a lot in the email can really only be understood in context–past conversations, the way things are where we work together, and so on. I posted here because I wanted to check whether the letter accurately reflected my intention in writing it. (Literally to ask the question asked in the title of the OP.) (BTW my intention was to be both chiding and inviting towards friendly philosophically-styled discussion.) I thought, out of habit, that getting readings from third parties would be useful. But it looks like there may just be too much missing context in this case. FWIW Others involved in the situation have seen the letter, and they’re all like “totally, dude, send that shit.” But then, for all I know they just want to see fireworks. 🙂 (Not that I expect fireworks. I don’t.) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/37 "2008-04-19T17:16:21Z")
Is there much of a historical tradition of hanging philosophers, or shooting them out of hand? 'Cause I don’t really see they’d have much chance of talking their way out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/38 "2008-04-19T17:30:14Z")
Collounsbury? Is that you? I never could understand the long-winded shit he wrote, either. You and your friend must be a hoot at parties. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/39 "2008-04-19T19:20:59Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] As I have said, the tone of the thing is pedantic. [/quote] Mission accomplished. But it doesn’t strike me as clever, either. If it were clever, I might have been compelled to try to read it. > [@](#): > > But “obscure?” No way. “Unclear?” Absolutely not. The thing is simple enough to understand. Seriously, what in the email do you find difficult? Yes, obscure. Yes, unclear. Some notable, tortuous, or painful phrases: “For you had uttered a declarative sentence, which by default is intended to inform…” “This kind of thing must put one in a mind to discover extra-semantic clues…” “I looked to contextual clues—in particular, this time, the manner of your speech, and your body language, came to seem important.” I think you could have worked a little harder to throw a few more punctuation marks in that last one, since you only used one dash and four commas for 22 words. Finally, what was the point of sharing this in the Pit? We’ve all said that it was pissy, pedantic, and boring. In retort you seem to be saying that you meant to be pissy and pedantic. Does it really bother you that your prized email was boring? Please note, I’m not trying to take any personal shots at you. It was just a serious chore to read (parts) of that e-mail, and I thought is wasn’t clever at all. I am a little curious what the task was, and how his tone could have such an effect on how you tried to carry it out. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948/40 "2008-04-19T20:29:51Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Mission accomplished. But it doesn’t strike me as clever, either. If it were clever, I might have been compelled to try to read it. [/quote] Well, I didn’t think it was clever either. > [@](#): > > Yes, obscure. Yes, unclear. Given the examples that followed, I don’t think these words mean what you think they mean. > [@](#): > > Finally, what was the point of sharing this in the Pit? I explained how I made this mistake (and why it was a mistake) a couple of posts ago. > [@](#): > > We’ve all said that it was pissy, pedantic, and boring. In retort you seem to be saying that you meant to be pissy and pedantic. Does it really bother you that your prized email was boring? Not at all. I object to the notion that it’s _unclear_ or _obscure_. -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-chiding-scolding-discussing-in-a-friendly-way-or-itchin-for-a-fight/445948.md?page=3)