# Am I doing something wrong by refusing to serve in a military where service is obligated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888 "2019-03-10T12:59:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/41 "2019-03-12T14:33:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the law states that you must serve, then refusing to serve is wrong. Your moral, ethical, or personal concerns are irrelevant. Funny how in one breath you say something is “wrong” and in the next you say morals and ethics are irrelevant. Which is it? Are you making a moral argument or not? If morals are irrelevant, why should anyone listen to you about right and wrong? OP, it’s not morally wrong to avoid forced labor. However, if you’re just avoiding service to further your career, and you want to continue to live and work in Israel in the future, I suspect your decision is counterproductive. I’m not Israeli so maybe I’m totally wrong, but I imagine refusing to serve your country, for any reason, moral or practical, will damage your career much more than a short stint in the military will. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/42 "2019-03-12T15:35:56Z")
> [@mifset](#): > > I know that if I don’t serve I will be shamed by many people in my society. Your military hitch would be for three years. Shame is for a lifetime. Someday you may value that more than you seem to now. > [@](#): > > my motivation to get an exemption is purely of selfish reasons, I wanna keep working, I feel like there are a lot opportunities that I would miss if I were to go to the military, etc… Those opportunities are less likely to exist long-term in your society for non-veterans, aren’t they? > [@](#): > > Are these mere excuses to justify my inner selfishness? If you have to ask, you already know. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/43 "2019-03-12T17:34:38Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Take a rifle. Shoot him dead. Get my family into the truck and drive off as fast as possible. Oh dude, come on. Nobody would actually do that. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/44 "2019-03-14T02:18:37Z")
My answer depends on your answer to this. Do you actively seek to end compulsory service in your country? Do you feel that it would be a better thing if everyone refused to serve? Are you willing to spend three years of your life working with minimal economic return to provide a non-military benefit to your country? If your answer is yes, yes, yes. Then it’s an ethical matter to you. Standing up for your ethics is only convenient when you hold the same ethics as the majority. Any other case, you’re a skulking leach on your society, and will probably deserve their shaming. Can’t say that I think you deserve imprisonment, but . . . I wouldn’t be picketing your sentence hearing. Tris * * * Ralph Waldo Emerson asked Thoreau when he was in jail, “Henry, what are you doing in there?” Thoreau replied, “Waldo, what are you doing out there?” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/45 "2019-03-14T11:14:02Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Funny how in one breath you say something is “wrong” and in the next you say morals and ethics are irrelevant. Which is it? Are you making a moral argument or not? If morals are irrelevant, why should anyone listen to you about right and wrong? The OP’s _personal_ morals or ethics are irrelevant to as to whether the _state_ has determined that an action is right or wrong. If the state says that he must serve, then it is irrelevant whether he feels he ought to or not. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > A mundane example, A homosexual person in 1950’s Britain was breaking the law by just having gay sex in the privacy of their own home and yet we are comfortable saying that they were actively doing the right thing. I’m not sure by what compass a sex act can be described as “doing the right thing”. You may as well say that it is _right_ to have a cheeseburger for lunch, or that it is _just_ to watch Star Trek. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/46 "2019-03-14T19:32:26Z")
> [@mifset](#): > > I live in Israel so I’m forced to go to the military for three years. I found a “tricky” way to get an exemption and I’m heavily considering it. My problem is that I know that if I don’t serve I will be shamed by many people in my society. That is a factor that you will need to consider in your decision. > [@](#): > > But right now my motivation to get an exemption is purely of selfish reasons, I wanna keep working, I feel like there are a lot opportunities that I would miss if I were to go to the military, etc… Then you will need to consider something further - that the shame you will encounter is justified. You are acting selfishly, and seeking advantage over the others who are not acting selfishly. That is indeed a shameful act. > [@](#): > > So I feel like I need to justify not serving in the military in other ways so for example by saying: the IDF is using too much force against Palestinians and I don’t want to support this kind of behavior, or I feel like I could help and contribute more to the situation in Israel in other ways like by raising awareness for the problems. > > Are these mere excuses to justify my inner selfishness? Yes, they are just excuses. And I rather doubt that anyone, including you, will be fooled by them. Something else to consider - if you get away with draft-dodging for hypocritical reasons, you will be doing something to encourage others to think that those who refuse the draft on conscientious grounds, not based on their own advantage or on selfishness, are also doing so out of moral hypocrisy. By observing you, people will be that much more likely to think that other who do as you do are also motivated by selfishness. > [@](#): > > is there an actual right or wrong answer to whether or not someone should refuse to serve in a military where there is an obligation of military service? The only answer I can give isn’t specific to that question, but here it is nonetheless - Lying to others is wrong. Lying to yourself is stupid. Worst of all is falling for it in either case. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/47 "2019-03-15T13:35:41Z")
Conscription is archaic and immoral. If you have a moral objection to what the army is doing, or even if you are afraid, reluctant, or unwilling, then don’t go. The only thing you lose is the ability to criticize those that do serve. In the 1980s I knew a fair number of Israelis that were super conservative, wanted all non-Jews forcibly removed from Israel, but also didn’t feel that they themselves should have to do the dirty work. Most of them were born in the US or to American parents, so they would spend their draftable years in US, and then move back to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/48 "2019-03-15T15:32:58Z")
I don’t think conscription is inherently immoral and I don’t think it’s archaic either - especially for a country like Israel that is very small. (It’s less necessary in a country like the US.) But I do think conscientious objector status should be available for people who have strong personal convictions against violence, and they ought to be exempted. This guy here doesn’t seem to fall into that category. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/49 "2019-03-16T13:29:55Z")
If you value a cohesive, high trust society, you should perform your military service. Your service signals to everyone that **we are in it together**. The USA was once a high trust society, but that trust has eroded completely. I think if the Obamas and Trumps had to serve along with the LAZombies of the country we would be more unified and of course have fewer wars. I’m no fan of Israel, but I admire and envy the general overall unity your country has. My country, I don’t even think of it that way anymore, recently shut down over a border wall to stop illegal aliens from entering. Many of our politicians appear to be more concerned about Mexicans and Hondurans that US citizens. Yes, one can debate the merits of the wall. But it sure feels like we are not in it together. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/50 "2019-03-16T13:49:22Z")
> [@mifset](#): > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Ask yourself this question: if you do not fulfil your obligations to your country, why should your country fulfil its obligations to you? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/51 "2019-03-18T01:55:57Z")
Is there a non-combat role you’d be willing to serve? Many people have done that in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/52 "2019-03-18T15:18:34Z")
The peope who will shame you will largely fall into two categories: those who also had to serve, and those who did not. In your country, the larger group will have served. “Fuck it, just because you had to, doesn’t mean I have to suck it up.” The second, smaller group didn’t serve: “ Fuck you, you didn’t even go, why should I have to?” Is this what you’re looking for? I personally have zero problem with draft dodging in the US or most countries past WW II. Given that your country is arguably under threat, I would personally probably fill my obligation were I a citizen thereof, but that is much easier said from the comfortable position of not being one. Not wanting your ass (or other parts) getting shot is a supremely rational motivation. But what you want is to not serve AND have a great, moral and ethical, rejoinder to those who will question this decision in the future. That is a lot to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888/53 "2019-03-26T18:12:39Z")
Well, all I can tell you is there are a lot of people that disparage people who dodged the draft in Vietnam, even in spite of the fact that today it is widely considered an unjust war. Considering there are multiple nearby entities that don’t think your country has a right to exist, having everyone share the burden of military service does not seem outlandishly unreasonable. I presume you don’t think you’re better than everybody else? I don’t think in the long run your “selfish reason” is going to pay off. And honestly I don’t think coming up with a post-hoc moral justification is going to impress anyone either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-doing-something-wrong-by-refusing-to-serve-in-a-military-where-service-is-obligated/830888.md?page=2)