# Am I just being paranoid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967 "2007-01-14T19:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eclipse28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Eclipse28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse28)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/1 "2007-01-14T19:19:23Z")
National ID, No Bid contracts, War in Iran, Record Corporate Profits… What is the definition of fascism? Citing this well written column, one out of thousands on the subject, most being cast into the barrel of Lunatic Fringe conspiracy theories… I think Americans may be going down a road that they might not like and are too busy to care enough to do something about it. Or am I just a newbie moron with no clue? [posting of complete copyrighted web page removed] [http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd242.htm](http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd242.htm) Devvy’s website: [www.devvy.com](http://www.devvy.com) E-mail is: [devvyk@earthlink.net](mailto:devvyk@earthlink.net) Eclipse28 \ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/2 "2007-01-14T19:33:50Z")
> [@](#): > > What is the definition of fascism? You may actually get a decent discussion on this topic, but I would suggest that you drop this question. None of the potentially abused freedoms have actually been related to “Fascism,” which is either a particular political movement with fairly well-defined characterisitics (most of which are not demonstrated in your post) or is a sloppy buzz word used by the uninformed to indicate any authoritarian-leaning government. Since we have a number of posters who refer precision in language, even the sloppy posters who enjoy hurling the word at the current administration have learned that it is not productive to fling it about, here. Leaving “Fascism” out of the discussion, you may get a pretty good response. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/3 "2007-01-14T19:48:36Z")
[Moderating] Having said that, I note that your entire post was simply re-posted from a separate web site. Unless you are Devvy Kidd, you do not have authorization to post copyrighted articles, here. You may post selected excerpts, not to exceed 5% of the total article, under the Fair Use principle, but we are very concerned about property rights and do not permit wholesale abuse of copyright. (If you are Devvy Kidd, that presents a different problem in that it would appear that you are shilling for that web site.) Welcome to the SDMB, but please pay attention to our guidelines in the [Registration Agreement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=347160) and [general rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=384736), particularly regarding [copyrights](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7696968&postcount=3). [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Eclipse28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse28)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/4 "2007-01-14T19:51:52Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] [Moderating] Having said that, I note that your entire post was simply re-posted from a separate web site. Unless you are Devvy Kidd, you do not have authorization to post copyrighted articles, here. You may post selected excerpts, not to exceed 5% of the total article, under the Fair Use principle, but we are very concerned about property rights and do not permit wholesale abuse of copyright. (If you are Devvy Kidd, that presents a different problem in that it would appear that you are shilling for that web site.) Welcome to the SDMB, but please pay attention to our guidelines in the [Registration Agreement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=347160) and [general rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=384736), particularly regarding [copyrights](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7696968&postcount=3). [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] Ok..please delete and I will start again…sorry for the inconvienence… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/5 "2007-01-14T20:03:01Z")
[QUOTE=Eclipse28] **Am I just being paranoid?** [/QUOTE] Yes. But it won’t help. We’re going to get you anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Eclipse28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse28)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/6 "2007-01-14T20:09:27Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Yes. But it won’t help. We’re going to get you anyway. [/QUOTE] Hahahahaha… You all seem so smart… Intellectual banter par excellence! I am so out classed. I guess I will just sit here and wait for the men in the white coats to give me a free jacket that ties in the back! E \ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/7 "2007-01-14T20:17:30Z")
Feel free to paraphrase her arguments in your own words, (using short excerpts where her language is particularly appropriate). [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/8 "2007-01-14T21:21:25Z")
If we’re going to debate the desirability of whether a national i.d. is or isn’t a good idea, then this belongs in GD. If we’re asking whether the government can adopt such an i.d., the answer is yes. If we’re asking whether the government can make it only notionally voluntary by punishing (i.e. withholding funds) from states that do not adopt it, the answer is also yes. If we’re asking whether any of this falls under the banner of fascism, then the answer is definitely no, just as **Tomndebb** has already said. The OP needs to clarify to see where this winds up, but I’d be astounded if GD wasn’t the right place for this in the end. As for Devvy, well, she believes that the [federal reserve system is a scam](http://www.devvy.com/notax.html), which puts her into the nutcase conspiracy theory class, and her writings that [9/11 is a government conspiracy](http://www.devvy.com/911_Archives.html) confirm this. Nothing this woman says can be taken seriously. If the OP is a believer, he or she might find some rough going ahead. Nothing personal, but the SDMB is not kind to conspiracy theorists. ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Eclipse28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse28)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/9 "2007-01-14T21:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] If we’re going to debate the desirability of whether a national i.d. is or isn’t a good idea, then this belongs in GD. If we’re asking whether the government can adopt such an i.d., the answer is yes. If we’re asking whether the government can make it only notionally voluntary by punishing (i.e. withholding funds) from states that do not adopt it, the answer is also yes. If we’re asking whether any of this falls under the banner of fascism, then the answer is definitely no, just as **Tomndebb** has already said. The OP needs to clarify to see where this winds up, but I’d be astounded if GD wasn’t the right place for this in the end. As for Devvy, well, she believes that the [federal reserve system is a scam](http://www.devvy.com/notax.html), which puts her into the nutcase conspiracy theory class, and her writings that [9/11 is a government conspiracy](http://www.devvy.com/911_Archives.html) confirm this. Nothing this woman says can be taken seriously. If the OP is a believer, he or she might find some rough going ahead. Nothing personal, but the SDMB is not kind to conspiracy theorists. [/QUOTE] Yes, I agree… But after reading more on this subject on this site and your reply, I think this thread should be deleted altogether with my apologies. I’m looking forward to the FDA approved sub dermal tracking devices. What the hell…I’m an American, as long as I have my Ipod and low gas prices…conspiracies are just so much hoopla… Eclipse28 \ Politicians my lie to our face, but we are far better at lying to ourselves! ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Eclipse28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse28)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/10 "2007-01-14T22:05:47Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] If we’re asking whether the government can adopt such an i.d., the answer is yes. If we’re asking whether the government can make it only notionally voluntary by punishing (i.e. withholding funds) from states that do not adopt it, the answer is also yes. [/QUOTE] I still don’t see how something can be “voluntary” if it includes punitive repercussions… Oh yea I get it…we call those pesky little things “incentives” right? Eclipse \ ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/11 "2007-01-14T22:11:14Z")
This one is headed for Great Debates, so let’s just move it. **samclem** GQ moderator ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Eclipse28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse28)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/12 "2007-01-16T04:43:28Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] This one is headed for Great Debates, so let’s just move it. **samclem** GQ moderator [/QUOTE] Well…it had potential… I was certain I wouldn’t get the last word. I guess it’s not of any real concern. I am surprised and somewhat disappointed… eclipse \ Politicians may lie to our face, but we are far better at lying to ourselves! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/13 "2007-01-16T04:56:29Z")
[QUOTE=Eclipse28] Well…it had potential… I was certain I wouldn’t get the last word. I guess it’s not of any real concern. [/QUOTE] You certainly will not get the last word if you simply fold and fade. If you can put your ideas across in your own words in a coherent fashion, you might get a good discussion going. However, throwing out someone else’s web page as a thesis rarely works around here. If you think you can frame an argument that will catch the attention of the posters, here, give it a shot. That is the only way to test your ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Eclipse28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse28)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/14 "2007-01-16T06:08:23Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] You certainly will not get the last word if you simply fold and fade. If you can put your ideas across in your own words in a coherent fashion, you might get a good discussion going. However, throwing out someone else’s web page as a thesis rarely works around here. If you think you can frame an argument that will catch the attention of the posters, here, give it a shot. That is the only way to test your ideas. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s an interesting way of putting it… So you think my ignorance of the local policies and my use of the word “Fascism” being a sloppy generality ( I don’t know about that. If it looks like a duck and quacks…etc etc.. ) and an Article inappropriately posted was really the culprit here? It seems to me there is very little concern on the subject currently. I instead, e-mailed a direct question to the man at the top…we’ll see what comes of it. I am having some luck with some other topics that seem to suite this crowd a little more. I will return to this when it becomes a bit more worthy of the local elitists attention… 🙂 Eclipse \ PS…Tomndebb if you don’t respond to this, I will have the last word… 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/15 "2007-01-16T06:15:47Z")
What do record corporate profits (which corporations) have to do with fascism? Marc ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-just-being-paranoid/387967/16 "2007-01-16T16:10:23Z")
So…since we aren’t appearently debating if the US is on the road to facism (we’ve never had one of THOSE thread in here before 😛 ), can I assume we are debating the merits of the National ID instead? Because I don’t see what to debate about ‘Record Corporate Profits’ or ‘No Bid contracts’…both of which we’ve had for a rather long time, and both of which I have no particular problem with (the no bid contract thingy is to fix the already fucked up government procurement system…sure, it can be abused. So can bid contracts. Its the system thats fucked up, not one aspect). If anyone would like to debate those subjects, list out your problems with either of those issues and maybe we can get the ball rolling. As I’ll assume the debate has now shifted to the National ID one, I’ll start by listing [Wiki’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ID) take on it, and some pro’s and con’s from the article, then seeing if anyone wants to talk about why there is any fuss at all about this thing (aside for left and right wingnuts worried about either the One World Gubberment™ taking over, of Facist America™ putting the jackboots to the people)? > [@](#): > > What the identity document might include > > Polish national ID card (front and back)Information present on the document — or in a supporting database — might include the bearer’s full name, a portrait photo, age or birth date, address, an identification number, profession or rank, restrictions, and citizenship status. New technologies could allow identity cards to contain biometric information, such as photographs, face, hand or iris measurements, or fingerprints. Electronic identity cards or e-IDs are already available in some countries such as Hong Kong, Malaysia, Estonia, Belgium or Spain. Morocco is also planning to launch a new identity card of biometric type by January 2007. Arguments for and against identity cards Identity cards are a source of continued debate. Their use is backed by law enforcement officials who claim that it can make surveillance and identification of criminals much easier. However, concern is also expressed about the extensive cost and potential abuse of hi-tech smartcards. > [@](#): > > In the United Kingdom and the United States especially, state-issued compulsory identity cards are a source of debate as they are regarded an infringement of privacy and civil liberties. Most criticism is directed towards possibilities of extensive abuse of identity documents because of the use of central databases to store sensitive data. A 2006 survey of United Kingdom Open University students concluded that the planned compulsory identity card coupled with a central government database generated the most negative attitudinal response among several alternative configurations.[1] > [@](#): > > Arguments in favor > > One can be identified in banks or at national borders without a passport. > Identity cards can be used to quickly verify ownership or eligibility to services; for example, a shopkeeper or cashier may request that an ID document be shown by a client paying with a credit card or cheque. > Crimes such as identity theft may be reduced in countries where identity cards are required to open a bank account. Of course, phishing and many other forms of identity theft will be unaffected. > Identity cards would be a useful administrative tool that could increase efficiency in dealings with both the government and private companies. > ID cards reduce crime. All banks require that ID cards be presented by customers, which increases security. Certain auction houses also require them from sellers. > Problems do not arise from one’s identity card unless one has “something to hide.” > In American states that don’t issue identity cards, private companies require equivalent documents, such as driver’s licenses, which are not properly suited for identification purposes. > Law enforcers can locate and identify people who either do not know their names and/or addresses (e.g., due to Alzheimer’s disease or amnesia), or who claim names that are not consistent with the names on their identity cards (e.g., due to dissociative identity disorder, as in the case of Billy Milligan). > Cards may help reduce immigration service bureaucracy. In certain countries, the procedures for deporting illegal immigrants whose ages, identities or nationalities cannot be formally established are more complex than those for whom they can be readily asserted. This gives illegal immigrants more time to prepare their legal defenses. In some countries (Spain, for instance) it may prevent the immigrant’s deportation altogether. > All humans already carry unfalsifiable personal identification, which cannot even be discarded: DNA. In lieu of identity cards, use of DNA sequencing hashes may soon become the preferred method for personal identification, even when interacting with private economic entities. The use of identity cards is arguably a lesser evil compared to the potentially gross privacy risks associated with daily use of DNA for identification purposes.[original research?] > [@](#): > > Arguments in opposition > > It has been argued that identity cards impose a disproportionate burden upon citizens while empowering the executive, which is contrary to the maxim: “the government that governs best, governs least”. Some have pointed out that extensive lobbying for identity cards has been undertaken, in countries without compulsory identity cards, by IT companies who will be likely to reap rich benefits in the event of an identity card scheme being implemented. > Cards could be used to track anyone’s movements and private life, thus endangering privacy. The proposed British ID card (see next section) will involve a series of linked databases, to be managed by the private sector. Managing disparate linked systems using a range of institutions and any number of personnel is alleged to be a security disaster in the making.[1] > A requirement to carry an identity card at all times can lead to the inconvenience of arbitrary requests from card controllers (such as the police). This can lead to functionality creep whereby carrying a card becomes de facto if not de jure compulsory, as in the case of Social Security numbers, which are now widely used as ID. > Government claims that identity cards will prevent terrorism may not be based in fact. The former UK Home Secretary Charles Clarke conceded that identity cards may only be useful in the identification of bodies in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. Critics rely on the facts that the terrorists involved in 9/11 and the London tube attacks did have and would have had identity cards, respectively. As a strong presumption of identity is given in favour of a card holder, the identity card scheme might be an asset to potential terrorists. > Historically, totalitarian governments which issued identity cards to citizens used them oppressively. For example, Nazis made use of unique biometric identities by tattooing identification numbers on the arms of Final Solution concentration-camp detainees. > More recently, the apartheid-era government of South Africa used pass books as internal passports to oppress that country’s black population. > In many cases, other forms of documentation such as a driver’s license, passport, or Medicare card serve a similar function, and thus an ID card is not needed. > > [edit] Identity cards worldwide I figured I’d also include [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) link, again from Wiki, discussing just what Fasicm is…just for the benifit of the OP, who doesn’t seem to know what its all about (Corporate Profits?? No Bid Contracts? WTF do those have to do with Facism, or how are they indicators we are on that road??). > [@](#): > > Definitions > Main article: Definitions of fascism > Many diverse regimes have identified themselves as fascist, and many regimes have been labelled as fascist even though they did not self-identify as such. Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have engaged in long and furious debates concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets. Since the 1990s, there has been a growing move toward some rough consensus reflected in the work of Stanley Payne, Roger Eatwell, Roger Griffin, and Robert O. Paxton. > > Mussolini defined fascism as being a right-wing collectivistic ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism. He wrote in The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism: > > Anti-individualistic, the fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal will of man as a historic entity. … The fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. … Fascism is therefore opposed to that form of democracy which equates a nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of the largest number. … We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the ‘right’, a Fascist century. If the 19th century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the ‘collective’ century, and therefore the century of the State. (a version of the text is here). > > Since Mussolini, however, there have been many conflicting definitions of the term “fascism.” Merriam-Webster defines fascism as “a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition”.[4] > > Two particular definitions reflect the view that Fascism is an extreme right-wing ideology: > > (1) “A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.” --American Heritage Dictionary (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1983) > > (2) “Extreme right-wing totalitarian political system or views, as orig. prevailing in Italy (1922-43).” --The Pocket Oxford Dictionary (Oxford University Press, 1984) > > A recent definition is that by former Columbia University Professor Robert O. Paxton: > > “Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.”[5] > Paxton further defines fascism’s essence as: > > “1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination.”[6] > Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it. > > Stanley Payne’s Fascism: Comparison and Definition (1980) uses a lengthy itemized list of characteristics to identify fascism, including the creation of an authoritarian state; a regulated, state-integrated economic sector; fascist symbolism; anti-liberalism; anti-communism; anti-conservatism.[7] Semiotician Umberto Eco also attempts to identify characteristics of fascism in his popular essay Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt.[8] More recently, an emphasis has been placed upon the aspect of populist fascist rhetoric that argues for a “re-birth” of a conflated nation and ethnic people.[9] > > Most scholars hold that fascism as a social movement employs elements from the political left, but many conclude that fascism eventually allies with the political right, especially after attaining state power. For example, Nazism began as a socio-political movement that promoted a radical form of National Socialism, but altered its character once Adolf Hitler was handed state power in Germany. A minority of scholars and political commentators argue that fascism is a form of socialist dictatorship similar to that in Soviet Union.[10] -XT