You should out the guy. Who was it?
Sounds just like Lenny Bruce’s “Religions Inc.” only more so. Life surpasses comedy.
On a related note … ever seen “Marjoe”? Quite an experience.
Religion has always been primarily a business. From the first shaman who figured out a way to get out of hunting with the boys, to the current day.
You might want to nail your theses opposing such practices to the church door …
You are jumping to conclusions. The proceeds are more than likely going to support the churches ministries, just like proceeds from bake sales, or donations at church.
Before it was a business, it was (and continues to be) a tool to get and retain power. There’s nothing to get people to follow you like making them believe that the Supreme Being in the Universe wants them to follow you. But then, power - money, money - power; they’re just two sides of the same coin.
As begbert points out, at least here they’re comparatively honest about it. And the followers are making a better deal for themselves; now in order to get them to follow, God has to not send them to Hell and make them rich. Folks used to just settle for the Hell part, but people here and now aren’t close enough to actual suffering in their lives to really believe in Hell very much - it’s just not real to them.
One nice thing about some of the older mainstream denominations is that the records are available to members for review. I can review our books for all expenses and income, and we have budget presentations each year to the congregation.
While I pity that you’ve left the Church, I must agree that turning a Church into a businessplace is rather sick.
Yes…you are crazy. They are Christians! How else could you possibly expect them to behave??
Winks to XT 
Some churches sell books or tapes of the sermons. Is that abusive? What if the money does go for a good cause?
The young people at my church had different projects going (car washes, etc.) to raise money for a trip to New Orleans to help with the cleanup after Katrina. These were good kids with decent motives.
Sure there are ministries and people like Marjoe Gortner who will rip you off. If you are suspicious, don’t give and don’t go there. But some of you are cynical to the point of broadbrushing. You don’t really want to make atheists look like shabby thinkers.
he also hired quasi legal waiting for a work permit migrants…so it would have been questionable for me to be too judgmental at the time:o
TJ;)
So…the way to deal with someone “jumping to conclusions” is to jump to your own contrary conclusion? Excellent!
-Joe
Just a question or two. Would you object to someone purchasing a cross or Jesus “T” shirt at say WallMart? If so then you are going to have a problem with a church selling the same.
There is nothing wrong with a church having a book store and selling items. There is nothing wrong with letting the members know what is in the book store.
As far as the bands go. If they are coming to your girlfriends church to preform they have expences to pay and they have to make a living also.
If the church is preforming a service by providing these things there is nothing wrong with it.
If there is a hard sell and being pushy about it and the only thing in the book store some staff member has a hand in it then it becomes questioable.
You may disagree with what a church stands for, but a church has to be a viable business. There are bill that have to be paid every month. I have known of churches that they lost sight of the business side, and most are called the former church of.
But what is the business of the church? Is it to be finacially stable? That is the major thing with to many of churches. Or is it the business of reaching people and helping people. One is out of self need and the other is out of Love.
And to the question of why should churches have expences? Why not just home meetings. As Christians we are called to spread the word of Christ’s saving life, that means a church should be growing. We are called to help others, that takes time and money.
I know and accept that most on this board will call me a fool. That is OK. If I thought I could persudade on this board I would try, but now is not the time or place.
I have always maintained that religion tends to be a convenient cover for sociopaths who want to exploit other people since people tend to be so trusting of anyone in the trappings of religion. IF ** RogueAOV**'s allegations are true (which I am seriously skeptical about simply because if they really were true he could have sold them to The Enquirer instead of talking about it here), yeah, that is pretty creepy. However, in the OP’s case, I don’t see much reason to be outraged. In the Biblical era maybe Christians could get by on subsistence farming or whatever. In modern society, though, we all have to make a living somehow. I don’t automatically assume that someone whose business involves religion is a shady character since it is quite conceivable that someone might want to make their business religious-focused simply because that is what they truly enjoy in life and are passionate about.
I have a friend who is Catholic and makes a living doing web sites for Catholic groups/individuals. He’s an honest person who does not get rich from his business (he probably makes less than he would doing secular websites, actually, since he often gives discounts to churches who aren’t able to spend a lot). His business is religious focused simply because he himself is religious. Why couldn’t the same be true for a musician who makes his living playing with church bands?
You know, I actually think your problem may be that you have a certain image of what church is supposed to be like from your Catholic upbringing (since Catholic Mass is so structured) and therefore any deviation seems “wrong” to you now. Where in the Bible did it say it was wrong to have bands in church? If anything, I wish more churches would put effort into music…both the classical stuff and also making decent quality modern music.
As for having CDs for sale, well, musicians usually don’t make very much money (if any) for playing gigs but still need to afford to eat. It is not like they are coercing or deceiving people into buying their music. People who like their music are probably happy to buy it and getting what they wanted, so who is being exploited?
I have never heard that being a Christian means you have to give away all your services for free, or else the American economy would have fallen apart long ago since no Christians would have any money or own businesses.
Well, again, they have to make a living somehow. They probably also actually believe that they have worthwhile things to say in the book that people will benefit from (even if that may not actually be true) so it is not like they are trying to defraud people.
Probably just trying to make things more interesting for the attendees, and trying to keep up with the times. Again, I think you find this so off-putting because you are used to traditional Catholic services.
O noes, Christians who aren’t ashamed to publicly admit to being Christians. Guess it’s time to send some more to the lions.
Or do you object to this stuff only because someone made money creating it?
If so, do you also object to this: http://www.thehijabshop.com/ or this: http://shop.cafepress.com/jewish-apparel ?
Wanting to express one’s religious convictions seems to be part of human nature.
Since there is unfortunately a pretty good chance that the atheists are right and our brief life in this world is followed by an endless oblivion, it hardly seems worth getting worked up over things other people are doing that aren’t hurting you. If you don’t like it, don’t buy anything from em and the forces of capitalism will put them out of business if enough people agree with you.
Sounds awful, but my recent experiences at church are only much lightened versions of this. Treat people well and lovingly, that is the best thing I can tell you about the teachings of the divinity Yoshua ben Joseph.
That is exactly what I disagree with.
Making a buck off of people that just want to feel connected with a higher power hits me wrong. You want salvation? Well, here’s a shirt you can buy that will make you feel like part of the group! Not saying that all of them are shucking masses, some of them really probably have strong ties to charities, but I don’t know…I mean, the big thing is that if these people selling this stuff really believed in The Bible then I would figure they wouldn’t want to go against God.
13And the passover of the Jews was nigh, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14and he found in the temple those selling oxen, and sheep, and doves, and the money-changers sitting, 15and having made a whip of small cords, he put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew, 16and to those selling the doves he said, `Take these things hence; make not the house of my Father a house of merchandise.’
(John 2:13:16 in the literal translation)
Maybe when Christ comes back the wrath will be all the lawsuits He will be throwing at these companies. Suing everyone that illegal use of His name and likeness for profit could be an awesome sight. Those would be some scary lawyers.
Here is a church that is a ‘viable business’:
Hinn is reported to earn more than US$200 million ($217 million) a year in donations, tax free.
The US Senate is currently investigating Hinn and his ministry.
Hinn owns a $36 million jet, a $10 million mansion in California and a convoy of expensive cars.
In 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would “call him home” (a euphemism for death). Some were fearful that he was referring to suicide given the passionate pleas and tears that accompanied his statement. He raised $9.1 million.
The investigation, broadcast on ABC’s Primetime Live on November 21, 1991, found that Tilton’s ministry threw away prayer requests without reading them, keeping only the money or valuables sent to them by viewers, garnering his ministry an estimated $80 million a year.
During his appearances at church conventions in the 1970s, Popoff routinely and accurately stated the home addresses and specific illnesses of his audience members, a feat he allowed them to believe was due to divine revelation and “God given ability”…
James Randi and his assistant, Steve Shaw, researched Popoff by attending shows across the country for months. They discovered that radio transmissions were being sent by Peter’s wife, Elizabeth Popoff, where she was reading information which she and her aides (Volmer Thrane, the brother of his manager Nancy Thrane, and Reeford Sherrill) had gathered from earlier conversations with members of the audience. Popoff would simply listen to these promptings with his in-ear receiver and repeat what he heard to the crowd…
At Popoff’s peak in 1987, according to his comptroller, he took in $4.3 million a month…
Of these four, only one is still thriving- Benny Hinn’s outfit. Oral Roberts’, Bob Tilton’s, and Peter Popoff’s are, rightly, shadows of their former selves.
And remember how prominent & respected Roberts was in the 1970s? TV specials with lots of non-religious celebrity guests, Billy Graham’s support, the United Methodist Church recieving OR as an ordained minister. Where’s all that now?
Btw, the Roberts “call me home” fund plea WAS to establish a medical missionaries program. How well that went in the long-run I don’t know.
Why shouldn’t bands play in church? Christians enjoy music. If you like a group’s music why not buy their CD so you could enjoy it at home or in the car? The band has a right to make a living since they have expenses like anyone else. The people buying the CDs are receiving more value than the money they are paying for. It is a win win situation. The fans receive enjoyable music, and the band gets to continue their ministry. Many bands do not have their records in stores, so the church provides a service for the fans by providing CDs for sale. No one is implying that purchasing a CD will buy you anything other than good music. You are not buying forgiveness or the special favor of God.
You should check out the context of Jesus actions in the temple before you judge people who are just trying to help other Christians out. We should not try to muzzle the ox while he is treading the grain and the workman is worthy of his pay.
This is one of my favorite things about the minister where I go to church. He’s technically the senior minister, but when he goes up to the pulpit on Sundays, he says, “Hi. I’m John. I’m one of the ministers here,” and gets into the sermon. At a bonfire at our house, with an eclectic crowd, he says, “Hi. I’m John. My wife and I go to church with StuffLikeThatThere.”
Also, he has an all-over buzz cut with a no. 2 clipper. No big poofy hair. Good guy.