# Am I losing my sanity, my marriage, or both? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 22, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422 "2023-05-22T14:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/121 "2023-05-24T18:13:49Z")
I’m going to claim that a bathroom remodel is discretionary, and he shouldn’t impose that as a priority without discussion. And savings is… Well, there’s a great deal of uncertainty about what you’ll need, and people have wildly different comfort levels with different rates of savings. That’s probably also a discussion point, and not a unilateral decision. Making rent next month is not a discussion point. They both know how much needs to be paid by when. The electric bill is less certain, but it’s easy enough to select a margin of safety around the uncertainty. Groceries have a discretionary aspect, but they can probably reach an agreement on that… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/122 "2023-05-24T18:22:56Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > this might be a more mundane problem of someone earning most of the money but watching the spouse spend that money on herself instead of ‘them’, and it’s making him very angry. Yes, based on what @Akaj has said, I do think this is this issue, or at least a significant part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/123 "2023-05-24T18:26:13Z")
I’d bet my bottom dollar she would be real easy to get into couples therapy. She’s not seeing his POV(his words). She doesn’t like talking about finances, brings her energy down(his words). She’s not gonna see a 3rd persons POV either. It might bring her energy down. She’s not gonna be talked outta this easily. It’s gonna take a disaster to make her see. I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/124 "2023-05-24T18:37:33Z")
I have one more thing to say @Akaj , And I won’t contribute anymore to this thread. She’s already out of the door. She’s gone . I’m sorry for you and wish you the best. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/125 "2023-05-24T19:26:33Z")
> [@chela](#): > > It’s that simple! People are making it so complicated. They first pay the household bills then they pay their future selves by setting aside $$ for their retirement. > > And nothing wrong with delaying gratification by holding off on impulse purchases. It’s that simple _if and only if_ they both agree. But in her mind (evidently) her impulse purchases are more important than this nebulous retirement savings idea. And she’s (apparently) extremely resistant to altering this stance. Now what? Unrelated to the above … Here’s a facet of the problem that I’ve not seen other posters comment on so far. Their ages. Mr. A told us Mrs. A is 57. We can assume Mr. A is not far off that. Implying retirement for both is in the next 10-ish years max and might be a bunch fewer. Whether voluntarily or involuntarily due to law, corporate policy, infirmity, unexpected changes at work, etc. The implication of that applied to personal finances in general is clear. If they are behind on accumulating principal, they’re going to need to contribute a very large fraction of his wages over the few remaining years to catch up any material amount. If their investments aren’t performing well versus inflation (and whose are?) they may even be getting behinder by the month. How will real market returns and real interest rates work out over the next 10 years? Darn good question, but scary predictions by supposedly knowledgeable folks are not hard to find. If this family income, _and_ principal accumulation, _and_ investment performance triple-whammy shortfall has been left to fester over the last almost 4 years since pre-COVID, the OP has left the situation until _very_ late in the game. Now is a very bad time for him to panic or for her to wander off the ranch. But it’s also an understandable time for both things to occur. He’s wigging out over his concerns, and she’s counter-wigging out in her avoidance of his concerns. I know which side I empathize with. But as a matter of law, their interests in the combined nest egg and combined income are equal. 'Tis a right mess. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/126 "2023-05-24T19:44:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But in her mind (evidently) her impulse purchases are more important than this nebulous retirement savings idea. And she’s (apparently) extremely resistant to altering this stance. Having been in a year plus relationship with someone similar, I think it’s a bit more complicated. She sees it as an investment in her future career. You wouldn’t tell someone that getting an expensive engineering degree or even an expensive computer with a graphics program was a waste of money since it will more than pay for itself in the long run. This is the same thing in her mind. If you completely turn off the spigot, it will be your fault that things didn’t work out. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/127 "2023-05-24T19:51:06Z")
Another vote for marriage counseling. The OP’s situation sounds like a slow-motion financial threat in comparison to spending on gambling or drugs, but it’s still serious. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/128 "2023-05-24T19:51:17Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > She sees it as an investment in her future career. I’m not so sure. The OP wrote: > [@Akaj](#): > > All that said, I don’t see her having any great drive to create a viable business. She calls me her CMO/CFO – and I am a marketing professional – but rarely follows my advice. She’s just not comfortable marketing herself. She could easily have massages scheduled four days a week (she now visits people in their homes) but only takes clients referred by people she knows. So I take all her talk about being close to figuring out a way to market her new skills with several grains of salt. Which I take to mean she’s expecting magic to deliver her a viable business. Or maybe she’s expecting no such thing, doesn’t give two shits whether it ever makes her a nickel, but keeps telling him that it’ll be a viable business as a way of placating him. These situations where people have trouble being honest with themselves, and/or don’t even know their own mind, make it extremely difficult for their families to understand them, much less distant strangers like you and I. You may well be right that when her business doesn’t happen it’ll be his fault. Even if tomorrow he wins a Powerball sufficient to fund 100% of her desires and he does so. In any case, I think you and I agree that one can’t reason with magical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/129 "2023-05-24T19:54:56Z")
But from the OP… > [@Akaj](#): > > Her position is that her energy is so strong these days she just knows she’s going to turn a corner and start bringing in real money soon, and that my attempts to limit her threaten that energy and thus her ability to turn that corner. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > In any case, I think you and I agree that one can’t reason with magical thinking. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/130 "2023-05-24T20:25:32Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > In any case, I think you and I agree that one can’t reason with magical thinking. I don’t think it’s necessary to ‘reason’ her out of her thinking, just to expand her thinking to include Akaj’s feelings and needs. She’s being selfish, working less than she could work at something she is good at, spending significant money on things specifically for her benefit, and discounting Akaj’s concerns. Selfishness isn’t the death knell of a marriage, but it has to be dealt with. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/131 "2023-05-24T20:37:11Z")
Good point. But selfishness as a symptom has a number of distinct causes. And working the problem is very different depending on which cause is primary. To wit: 1. Each of our choices are equally important in principle. But mine are right and yours are wrong in this case. 2. Each of our choices are equally important in principle. But you got yours the last 12,345 times and I _never_ get mine. Right or wrong in this case, it’s past my turn so I get this one. 3. My choices matter and your choices don’t. To me. Defend your own interests as you will; just don’t affect me with them. 4. My choices matter and your choices don’t. Period. One needs to negotiate quite differently against those four different counterarguments. Plus of course the many combinations of those basic “hues”. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/132 "2023-05-25T05:26:41Z")
Many employers also have Employee Assistance plans, which provides short-term counseling (usually 5 to 8 sessions) at no cost to the employee. If that’s a possibility, it would be a start. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/133 "2023-05-25T05:52:30Z")
I don’t get why people seem to be jumping the gun here. @Spice_Weasel has the right idea of putting everything in the terms she understands and using her framing of energy and such. It doesn’t sound like the OP has tried this yet. So it seems early to be assuming they need to go to couple counselling, let alone some of the more drastic ideas proposed. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/134 "2023-05-25T06:26:54Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Thank you. Those kind of comments give me the creeps, but that’s probably because of my professional background where a partner strictly controlling the finances is Domestic Violence 101. Even trying to think beyond that paradigm it’s paternalistic at best. You love each other. Everything has to start from there. And you’d say the same if she had a gambling problem? I know of a couple where the all the money is controlled by the wife because the husband will gamble it away otherwise. She isn’t at all stingy with him but has her hands on the controls because he is sick. The wife here may not be that bad but it is a question of degree. People who sell glass baubles for $350 and lie to their customers to sell are criminals and they know it. The toughest, most vicious, underhanded, fraudulent small business people dress like hippies and have a warm loving persona they wear like a cheap suit. The toughest, most vicious, underhanded, fraudulent big business people run churches, but that’s another story. Those running the religion/manifesting/MSM etc con commonly brainwash their marks to believe that anyone who counsels the mark against giving the con their money is part of the problem. And that gives me the creeps. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/135 "2023-05-25T06:40:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > some of the more drastic ideas proposed. Some people, maybe most people, need to go through all the possible steps to give their irrational spouse chance after chance to prove that he/she isn’t irrational. I’ve wasted years and loads of money doing this myself, because accepting that you’re married to a lunatic is very difficult and painful. Maybe it must be done. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/136 "2023-05-25T06:54:49Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And you’d say the same if she had a gambling problem? I know of a couple where the all the money is controlled by the wife because the husband will gamble it away otherwise. She isn’t at all stingy with him but has her hands on the controls because he is sick. Did the husband agree to that arrangement or did she do unilaterally? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/137 "2023-05-25T07:28:42Z")
He agreed but so what if he hadn’t? Would it have been abusive of the wife to refuse to let him have open access to their joint finances till they lost their house (and that’s where they were heading, by the way)? Is it abusive to physically stop your Mum giving her savings away to a crook on the internet who says he loves her? The OP’s wife is in significant part being conned by criminals. It’s abusive to stop her? There is a continuum and reasonable people will differ about where the OP’s situation lies but to automatically leap to the view that physically preventing someone from accessing joint funds, when they are giving that money away to crooks, is not justified. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/138 "2023-05-25T07:31:56Z")
You’re the first to hyperbolically mention abuse. As has been said repeatedly, if she doesn’t agree to it, he can’t prevent her from spending her own money. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/139 "2023-05-25T08:11:25Z")
You’re exactly right. The post to which I was replying likened it to “domestic violence”. So I toned it down. The strict legal position does not alter the moral point I was discussing As to your final sentence it has been repeatedly **assumed** that his earnings are her property. But as I understand it only certain US States (a minority) have the principle of marital community property. I have a vague recollection that the OP is from Illinois which Google says is not a community property state. I’m not a US (or divorce) lawyer and I’m totally out of my depth. But until someone who knows about this stuff confirms that in the OP’s jurisdiction the OP’s earnings are joint property, I wouldn’t be too quick to assume. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2023, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422/140 "2023-05-25T09:08:18Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Tarot cards ain’t cheap. I just checked Amazon. I found a nice set for about $7 and it includes a sheet “explaining” the meanings of the cards. I think I spent around $5 dollars for a nice set when I lived in Germany decades ago and that set came with instructions for playing card games, nothing to do with woo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-losing-my-sanity-my-marriage-or-both/984422.md?page=8)