# Am I missing something here? (re: reopening of bars, etc... now) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356 "2020-10-06T17:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/41 "2020-10-08T00:20:19Z")
So the wedding wasn’t the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/42 "2020-10-08T00:39:57Z")
The virus was brought into the nursing home by someone who attended the wedding and caught it there. So, yes, the wedding was a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/43 "2020-10-08T01:15:07Z")
Unless they held the wedding at the nursing home it was the protocol of the nursing home that was responsible. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/44 "2020-10-08T04:57:58Z")
Guns don’t kill people, people kill people? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/45 "2020-10-08T12:23:52Z")
That was going to be my response as well. “Hey, I just fired the gun. Those people shouldn’t have been standing there.” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/46 "2020-10-08T13:13:52Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Are the Illinois governor and Chicago mayor “reckless, stupid and not a little bit insane” because they’re not mandating the same countermeasures they were in mid-March? It remains to be seen. What I’m talking about is more centered around what I’m seeing here in Texas- we had a LARGE spike in August with some consequent tightening of restrictions, and afterward something of a lull in case counts, etc… But they’re going back up now without any action by the state government, schools have reopened in part (most districts are allowing for virtual school and in-person), and we’re getting all sorts of dire warnings about this coming winter from the public health authorities. And what is the state government doing? Telling everyone to stay home and stay safe, as well as keeping restrictions where they are, in hopes of damping down transmission? Of course not. Those morons in Austin are throwing gas on this particular fire by loosening restrictions and reopening bars as of yesterday. Meanwhile, people out in the community seem to have the attitude that they should act about 2 notches less restricted than the government suggests. I mean, I see tons of morons with their masks pulled over their chins, or leaving their noses uncovered. Or just not wearing masks, and thinking that being six feet apart or outdoors is enough. And they’re going about doing whatever they normally used to, just half-assedly wearing masks and social distancing. (people have no damn clue how far six feet actually is!). I just have this suspicion that if they weren’t so hell-bent on undoing all the restrictions as soon as possible, we’d actually end up with a less restricted winter/spring on average than we’re going to have. Like we could keep things where they were a week ago the whole time, but instead we’re going to loosen up, and then have to lock down like in March again. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/47 "2020-10-08T14:16:35Z")
> [@bump](#): > > the article doesn’t address is whether or not those kids are spreading it more readily in Sweden than Finland to adults. Did you bother to read what was posted? Again: > [@SayTwo](#): > > … no increased risk for teachers And in the thread devoted to the Opening Schools subject was [a comparison](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/1160) of the rates of COVID-19 among teachers/staff of in-person schools in the U.K. versus the general population there over that time. No increases risk. Lower in fact. > [@bump](#): > > the kids- we know that they don’t necessarily get sick even though they can spread it like crazy. “Can”? Sure it is not impossible for there to be an elementary school aged child who is an effective transmitter and one can find an anecdote or even case report that shows such is _possible_. But the evidence is OVERWHELMING at this point that as a general rule, even with large amounts in their noses, THEY DO NOT “spread it like crazy”. > [@Joey\_P](#): > > Older children and adolescents appear to be able to transmit SARS-CoV-2 effectively [[51,56-59](https://www.uptodate.com/contents/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19-clinical-manifestations-and-diagnosis-in-children/abstract/51,56-59)]. > > (mind you, young kids may spread it less, but teens (ie high school/college kids) spread it at least as much as adults). There is no question that teens are more like adults than are young children in this regard, but the cherry-picking of information like this and the extrapolation to opening any school is reckless no matter how much harm keeping them shut causes is part of the push back that occurs, which then gets painted with brushstrokes way too broad. The group of citation 51 published [this](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/06/archdischild-2020-319910) as well, covered by [the NYT here](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/health/older-children-and-the-coronavirus-a-new-wrinkle-in-the-debate.html) … in short it was “ooops”. > [@](#): > > additional data from the research team now calls that conclusion into question; it’s not clear who was infecting whom … Some of the household members who appeared in the initial report to have been infected by older children in fact [were exposed to the virus at the same time as the children](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/06/archdischild-2020-319910). All of them may have been infected by contacts they shared. In fact from the article itself, only one case of child to household was found - > [@](#): > > … one pair of paediatric COVID-19 index case-secondary case were identified, giving an SAR of 0.5% … > > … We found that the SAR from children to household members was low … FUNNY that the follow up is noted so rarely. Citation 56 is a case report of AN overnight camp that cannot determine what the directionality was, an adult superspreader to many kids or between kids, and has to be taken in context of the many many other overnight camps without outbreaks. Citation 57: > [@](#): > > Some countries with relatively large class sizes in primary schools (e.g. Chile and Israel) reported sizeable outbreaks in some of those schools, though the amount of transmission occurring in these schools (vs. outside) is not clear from current reports Not supportive of your claim. 58? Just a report that there were outbreaks in a handful of crowded Israeli High Schools. _Finally_, citation 59 gives some of the evidence that High Schoolers can spread effectively while documenting clearly that younger children DO NOT. The incident was discussed [here](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks) as well: > [@](#): > > Arnaud Fontanet, an epidemiologist at the Pasteur Institute, and his colleagues started an investigation in Crépy-en-Valois in late March to see whether they could piece together the virus’ reach in the town and its schools. In the high school, antibody testing showed that 38% of pupils, 43% of teachers, and 59% of nonteaching staff had been infected. (By then, several people associated with the school had been hospitalized with COVID-19 complications.) In six elementary schools, they found a total of three children who had caught the virus, likely from family members, and then attended school while infected. But, as far as the researchers could tell, **those younger children didn’t pass the virus on to any close contacts**. Bolding mine. Interesting though that most of the spread seemed to be between the teachers and the staff and that the rates among the students (who had the most contacts with students, yes?) was LOWER, and in the [actual article](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.18.20071134v1.full.pdf), the rate in their household members was lower yet. > [@](#): > > The IAR was highest among the high school staff, teachers and pupils, and much lower among the > parents and siblings of pupils “Shall I keep going?” Offer only devil or the deep blue sea and some may side with the deep blue sea. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/48 "2020-10-08T15:36:17Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Guns don’t kill people, people kill people? If you want to use that analogy that’s fine. The nursing home is a gun-free zone. Use a protocol that assumes all visitors and staff pose a threat… Seriously, it’s just that simple. Instead of burning the country’s tax base to the ground, focus resources on those who are at risk. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/49 "2020-10-08T16:23:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m confused- am I missing something here? Why are authorities and people starting to loosen up even more in the face of rising case counts and predictions of a terrible winter of COVID? This seems reckless, stupid and not a little bit insane. In my county, there was a threshold for community spread of less than 100 cases per 100K resident. It was always the plan that we’d start phasing back in-person schooling shortly after that. We’re below 6% positivity. Pretty reasonable and data-driven IMO. I go to the gym now, and there is practically nobody there. I mean like 5 people in a 25,000 sq ft facility. Then there are counties around us that apparently have gone full MAGA/YOLO. I’m like OP… around August, and now in October, I feel like I’m witnessing lots of people collectively decide “I’m tired of this, so it must be over”, and they just start doing whatever. Getting haircuts, getting massages, etc. I dearly need a 90 minute back massage, my shit’s falling apart, but I don’t feel safe doing that. I certainly empathize with the fatigue but I have no idea what event is triggering people to say “it’s safe now” when the numbers don’t support it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/50 "2020-10-08T16:59:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Use a protocol that assumes all visitors and staff pose a threat… Part of that protocol is not having large gatherings of unmasked or distanced people to reduce the number of possible disease vectors. You’re acting like you can hermetically seal a nursing home when all the staff have lives outside the building and often work in other nursing homes as well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/51 "2020-10-08T17:36:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Part of that protocol is not having large gatherings of unmasked or distanced people to reduce the number of possible disease vectors. > > You’re acting like you can hermetically seal a nursing home when all the staff have lives outside the building and often work in other nursing homes as well. It’s far far cheaper to isolate nursing homes then an entire nation. But we did the exact opposite of that. instead of isolating nursing homes we sent covid patients to them virtually ensuring mass causalities. Keep outside visitors away and have the staff wear some level of bio-suits instead of destroying millions of jobs, delaying other people’s health care and disrupting the education system. You’re acting like you can destroy millions of lives ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/52 "2020-10-08T17:42:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re acting like you can destroy millions of lives As **Snowboarder\_Bo** posts daily- "36,394,149 total cases 1,060,462 dead 27,412,267 recovered In the US: 7,776,224 total cases 216,784 dead 4,983,380 recovered" It is already being done. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/53 "2020-10-08T19:54:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re acting like you can destroy millions of lives And what do you do with the essential workers, earning minimum wage, who live with their grandparents or with people who have high risk factors? Do you believe that they can be quickly trained and outfitted to use bio-suits and protocols correctly while earning $11/hour and working 60+ hours/week? Not all of the vulnerable can be isolated in nursing homes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/54 "2020-10-08T20:47:09Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Not all of the vulnerable can be isolated in nursing homes. many thousands of people die every year from the flu. Many thousands of people are going to die because covid kicked them out of line for medical tests. There’s nothing in your example that negates following nursing home protocols at home. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/55 "2020-10-08T23:22:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s nothing in your example that negates following nursing home protocols at home. Or from following the current CDC guidelines everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/56 "2020-10-08T23:51:42Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m confused- am I missing something here? Why are authorities and people starting to loosen up even more in the face of rising case counts and predictions of a terrible winter of COVID? This seems reckless, stupid and not a little bit insane. 1. There’s a political element that thinks the reaction to covid is overdramatized and unnecessary, that the risk levels are a hoax, that there is a political element of “freedom of choice”. They feel they are having their rights trampled by the tyranny of the state. They are catered to by the President. 2. People are tired of restrictions. It is difficult to not do the things we want, not live like we are accustomed. Skipping social events is _hard_. We are social animals. 3. In the early days of the pandemic, rising death rates scared people. Now, we are more accustomed to the threat. People have this psychological ability to dismiss threats that are commonplace, like traffic accidents or the flu. It was only a matter of time for people to acclimate to covid, it just has happened a lot faster than many imagined. 4. Science is hard. Accepting science in the face of strong emotional desires counter to the results is difficult. 5. For many Americans, the deaths are “over there”, not their family and friends. The risks are, therefore, low in their minds. 6. The incubation period means people are spreading for a while before they even have symptoms. That makes tracing causes even more difficult. The average person sucks at tracing delayed responses to their cause, or attributing correctly. 7. There is a strong financial incentive to pretend it is safe to return to normal. Businesses failing hurts the economy, and hurts people’s lives. Certain political leaders are more concerned how big business is going to be impacted than how many lives are going to be lost. There is probably more, but you get the gist. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/57 "2020-10-09T00:46:08Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Or from following the current CDC guidelines everywhere. That’s simply not true. Following the CDC guidelines has caused a great deal of harm to people who lost their job or were delayed medical treatment. The same holds true for those in nursing homes who were the victims of policies that forced covid patients onto those nursing homes. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/58 "2020-10-09T00:47:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > In the early days of the pandemic, rising death rates scared people. Now, we are more accustomed to the threat. People have this psychological ability to dismiss threats that are commonplace, like traffic accidents or the flu. It was only a matter of time for people to acclimate to covid, it just has happened a lot faster than many imagined. We also understand the disease a lot better. In the beginning people thought this could mean something like a 10%+ chance of dying if infected. We had convention centers setting up emergency field hospitals, a Navy hospital boat anchored in NYC, etc. Now, the CDC’s best estimate of survival rate for people under 50 is 99.98%. People, especially young people, aren’t acting as if this is the next Black Plague anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/59 "2020-10-09T01:00:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Following the CDC guidelines has caused a great deal of harm to people who lost their job or were delayed medical treatment. I understand your point, but disagree with it. The benefits outweigh the harm. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/60 "2020-10-09T01:30:38Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > We had convention centers setting up emergency field hospitals, a Navy hospital boat anchored in NYC, etc. [. . .] People, especially young people, aren’t acting as if this is the next Black Plague anymore. > **[Northeast, central Wisconsin hospitals in 'crisis' as state officials prep...](https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2020/10/07/wisconsin-coronavirus-green-bay-appleton-wausau-hospitals-reaching-breaking-point-state-prepares-ove/5915194002/)** > > A month ago, less than 300 people were hospitalized with COVID-19 across Wisconsin. On Wednesday, that number had risen to nearly 900. > **[The Virus Surges in North Dakota, Filling Hospitals and Testing Attitudes...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/07/us/coronavirus-north-dakota.html)** > > As Covid-19 cases grow in the Great Plains, one official said residents need to know “how perilously close we are to the edge.” > **[Hospitals a concern as Utah sets new record for COVID-19 cases](https://kslnewsradio.com/1934797/hospitals-a-concern-as-utah-sets-new-record-for-covid-19-cases/)** > > Dr. Emily Spivak, a physician with the University of Utah, said ICU capacity was filling up quickly at her hospital as Utah set a record for COVID-19 cases. > **[As beds fill, hospital concerns grow - Local News 8](https://localnews8.com/news/local-news/2020/10/08/as-beds-fill-hospital-concerns-grow/)** > > Only 1 Intensive Care Unit bed was available in the Idaho Falls area over the past weekend, according to the hospital CEO's. It's because of the number of COVID-19 patients being admitted to the hospital. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=4)