# Am I missing something here? (re: reopening of bars, etc... now) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356 "2020-10-06T17:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/661 "2020-11-20T00:07:38Z")
I’ve seen quite a number of studies and charts, trying to show which countries did what combination of strategies and how they fared. If you keep looking, I’m sure you’ll find more of them. If you’re interested in more info on it, maybe others will help if you start a thread on it (not suggesting you do that; it’s just an option) ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/662 "2020-11-20T01:57:27Z")
> [@bump](#): > > My point was that in pretty much any reckoning, this is a BIG deal. Huge. **As in, on the same scale of deaths as WWII** , a war that we’ve had dozens, if not hundreds of movies and TV shows made about it, similar numbers of war memorials, and whose aftereffects are still resonating to this day. My bold. Actually, according to the numbers I’ve run, it’s a lot worse than WW2. In just under nine months, the US has exceeded the number of combat deaths in WW2 - deaths occurring over 44 months. This is a devastating national emergency, and it’s being treated so cavalierly…infuriating. > [@Coronavirus COVID-19 (2019-nCoV) Thread - 2020 Breaking News](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-2019-ncov-thread-breaking-news/847758/5445): > > Running some numbers - same as I did before, really. I worked up these numbers yesterday evening my time. Figures are from [worldometer.com](http://worldometer.com) (from yesterday) for COVID-19 deaths in the US, starting with the first confirmed death on February 29 - that I could find, anyway. Numbers for combat deaths in WW2, and population of the US as of 1940 and 2020 taken from Wikipedia. For those curious, the population of the US increased by about 2.5 times. So. Since Feb 29, a period of 257 days, 247,938 … ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/663 "2020-11-20T02:11:43Z")
The thing is, those types of comparisons are silly and insult our intelligence. This isn’t a war. No human decided to commence this shit. Covid is also still killing less people than many other diseases, so they’re beating WWII every damn year. I get the emotional appeal of the message but it is very wrongheaded. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/664 "2020-11-20T02:25:39Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > The thing is, those types of comparisons are silly and insult our intelligence. This isn’t a war. No human decided to commence this shit. You’re right. It’s not a war. We don’t have to secure shipping lanes, send young men off to die on distant battlefields. We don’t have to convert almost all industry to military production. We don’t have to ration gasoline, rubber, sugar. All we have to do is a few simple, albeit _inconvenient_ things. -National mask mandate -Lockdown areas and events where people congregate, especially for extended periods of time -Provide financial support to those affected by the pandemic shutdowns. That’s it. That’s all. It’s worked in New Zealand, it’s worked in Australia, and it’s worked elsewhere. > [@FigNorton](#): > > Covid is also still killing less people than many other diseases, so they’re beating WWII every damn year. And? The topic is COVID-19. Some we can do bugger all about - heart disease and such. Some we could do more about, like influenza, but aren’t even though we should. Oh, and by the way, the oft-touted “fact” that influenza is worse is incorrect: [For the 2017-2018 flu season, an estimated 80,000 Americans died from flu and the complications thereof.](https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/26/health/flu-deaths-2017--2018-cdc-bn/index.html) > An estimated 80,000 Americans died of flu and its complications last winter, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This means it was the deadliest season in more than four decades – since 1976, the date of the first published paper reporting total seasonal flu deaths, said CDC Spokeswoman Kristen Nordlund. > In previous seasons, flu-related deaths have ranged from a low of about 12,000 during the 2011-2012 season to a high of about 56,000 during the 2012-2013. > [@FigNorton](#): > > I get the emotional appeal of the message but it is very wrongheaded. Nope, if anything it understates the massive failure of the US in this pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/665 "2020-11-20T02:30:02Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > What would it have looked like if Europeans had not put up with it? I’m not sure anyone has successfully made the case, or possibly could, that the virus is in the same category as whatever the things were that we fought a world war about, but all that aside, I’m curious what that would have looked like The humanitarian goal is saving human lives. Germany put out an ad hailing couch potatoes as heroes. > **[German government ad hails couch potatoes as virus heroes](https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-b2a8af0ef10063605bac14b6a7a46414)** > > BERLIN (AP) — The German government has released a tongue-in-cheek ad hailing an unlikely hero in the fight against the coronavirus pandemic: the humble couch potato. > [@](#): > > The German government has released a tongue-in-cheek ad hailing an unlikely hero in the fight against the coronavirus pandemic: the humble couch potato. > > The [90-second video](https://youtu.be/krJfMyW87vU) posted online Saturday begins with an elderly man recalling his ‘service’ to the nation back when he was just a young student “in the winter of 2020, when the whole country’s eyes were on us.” > > “I had just turned 22 and was studying engineering,” he continues, “when the second wave hit.” > > With violins stirring at viewers’ heart strings, the setting switches to a scene of the narrator as a young man. > > “Suddenly the fate of this country lay in our hands,” he says. “So we mustered all our courage and did what was expected of us, the only right thing. We did nothing.” > > “Days and nights we stayed on our backsides at home and fought against the spread of the coronavirus,” the narrator continues. “Our couch was the front line and our patience was our weapon.” > > The ad ends with a government message that “you too can become a hero by staying at home.” [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krJfMyW87vU) ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/666 "2020-11-20T02:36:35Z")
Let me tell you where I’m coming from. My in laws are from France. My Father in law has a 5cm wide scar the length of his thigh from when a shell went off when he was playing in a bomb crater. My mother in law had to live in Sweden every summer because her parents couldn’t afford to feed her. France’s covid death count is comparable to the United States. Would you dare to explain to a Frenchman how this is worse than WWII and they should put more effort in? ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/667 "2020-11-20T03:08:22Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > I get the emotional appeal of the message but it is very wrongheaded. > [@FigNorton](#): > > France’s covid death count is comparable to the United States. Would you dare to explain to a Frenchman how this is worse than WWII and they should put more effort in? 😃 Quite the turnaround, in about half an hour. Care to respond to the substantive parts of my point, or are you content with waving an emotional appeal banner? Anyway, presuming the numbers are analogous\*…yes, I would. One tragedy does not cancel out another, and we can’t do much for those that have suffered in past wars. We _can_, and should, do something about the situation as it stands now. Look, I’m not unsympathetic to the travails of your parents, but those travails have _nothing_ to do with the pandemic. \*ie, the comparative number of deaths per capita per day. Damned if I know - I’ve got two home countries, and that’s enough to keep track of. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/668 "2020-11-20T03:12:13Z")
That’s not a turnaround. Bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/669 "2020-11-20T03:33:42Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > You’re right. It’s not a war. We don’t have to secure shipping lanes, In order to initiate project Couch Potato it’s necessary secure transportation as well as all other jobs. You can’t declare a job “necessary” and magically it stops spreading. You cannot stop it from spreading once it’s dispersed and the best way to disperse it is through a large well traveled city. Enter NY. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/670 "2020-11-20T03:44:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In order to initiate project Couch Potato it’s necessary secure transportation as well as all other jobs. You can’t declare a job “necessary” and magically it stops spreading. > > You cannot stop it from spreading once it’s dispersed and the best way to disperse it is through a large well traveled city. Enter NY. And yet we did, here in Australia. From a high of 600+ new cases/day in July, to no new cases in almost three weeks. Most of these cases were in Melbourne, by the way, a city of 5 million + people. If Australia can do it, with its more limited resources, then so can the US. All that’s lacking is the will. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/671 "2020-11-20T03:47:30Z")
As to your substantive comments, is this supposed to be one? > [@galen\_ubal](#): > > And? The topic is COVID-19. Some we can do bugger all about - heart disease and such Yeah, why should we talk about heart disease? This is a covid-19 thread. Now, back to WWII… ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/672 "2020-11-20T03:55:03Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > > [@galen\_ubal](#): > > > > And? The topic is COVID-19. Some we can do bugger all about - heart disease and such > > Yeah, why should we talk about heart disease? This is a covid-19 thread. Now, back to WWII… My point was that a WW2+ emergency deserves _at least_ a WW2 level of national response. This goes back to why reopening bars, etc is a bad idea. I say it’s a bad idea because it facilitates the spread of COVID, when there are simple ways to limit it - including closing bars and restaurants. Expensive, yes, but simple. You are apparently in disagreement. I’d like to know why. So far as heart disease, that largely goes back to lifestyle, which is extremely difficult for any governmental body to control barring major (and unacceptable) intervention. The only thing is education, and that’s slow going. Rather like the slow trend of diminished smoking; there’s been 50-ish years of education on that one, and there’s still quite a few smokers about. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/673 "2020-11-20T04:26:31Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > And yet we did, here in Australia. From a high of 600+ new cases/day in July, to no new cases in almost three weeks. New York was hitting a high of 1000 deaths per per day. Not cases, DEATHS. New cases were 10 times that. You just don’t seem to grasp the fact that this was many times worse In the United States early on. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/674 "2020-11-20T04:29:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You just don’t seem to grasp the fact that this was many times worse In the United States early on …we all grasp this. But you’ve failed to explain the relevance. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/675 "2020-11-20T04:42:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > You just don’t seem to grasp the fact that this was many times worse In the United States early on > > …we all grasp this. But you’ve failed to explain the relevance What he said. Just because it’s been worse there doesn’t mean it has to _continue_ to be worse. Again, all that is lacking is the will. Your father, mother, grandparents were able to endure much worse, for the cause. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/676 "2020-11-20T04:45:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …we all grasp this. But you’ve failed to explain the relevance. I don’t think you do. It spread quickly in New York and was the likely cause of it spreading nationally before states locked things down. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/677 "2020-11-20T04:50:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t think you do. …you would be thinking wrong. > [@Magiver](#): > > It spread quickly in New York and was the likely cause of it spreading nationally before states locked things down. You still haven’t explained the relevance. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/678 "2020-11-20T04:52:05Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Just because it’s been worse there doesn’t mean it has to _continue_ to be worse. Again, all that is lacking is the will. We can’t stay locked down forever and even if we could there is still a working infrastructure that can’t be locked down. States like New Jersey who did a good job reducing the numbers are now on the rise. You can’t keep re-instituting lock downs indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/679 "2020-11-20T04:54:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We can’t stay locked down forever and even if we could there is still a working infrastructure that can’t be locked down …did you actually read anything I wrote in our last exchange? Who is advocating locking down forever? Call them out because I will loudly disagree with them ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/680 "2020-11-20T04:56:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We can’t stay locked down forever and even if we could there is still a working infrastructure that can’t be locked down. States like New Jersey who did a good job reducing the numbers are now on the rise. You can’t keep re-instituting lock downs indefinitely. So far as the working infrastructure - Australia did not shut down, for instance, essential industries like cargo transportation, etc. Nor has Australia, even Melbourne, locked down forever. Restrictions have largely been lifted, with only a few things remaining. Perhaps you should educate yourself about what Australia and New Zealand actually _did_ do, before dismissing those efforts. Try Googling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=35)