# Am I missing something here? (re: reopening of bars, etc... now) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356 "2020-10-06T17:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/761 "2020-11-23T20:04:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > As far as I know, they don’t really have other pastimes or hobbies other than watching TV or movies. Yeah, that’s pretty sad to me. But I’m a bit of an introvert. And being hard of hearing has made it more of a chore to go to bars and movies parties and such. I’ve become accustomed to that. I have a co-worker with a 5 year old that was supposed to start school this year. Now mom and dad are working from home. A lucky thing for those that can do it. But having a 5 year old to entertain must make it difficult.The kid is stuck at home with the parents, as much as the parents are stuck at home with the child. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/762 "2020-11-23T22:00:49Z")
We tend to fixate on New Zealand, in part because they are more like ‘us’ and active NZ Straightdopers are telling us about how they did it, but there are countries that are not islands, that border other countries with outbreaks and with a diversity of political systems and low GDP that have done just as well. I suggest you look at the numbers for Vietnam, Thailand, Uruguay and Mongolia, among others. The USA can make no excuses or exceptions in this regard. Its failure is its own and it started with massive rot at the very top. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/763 "2020-11-23T22:21:44Z")
There are things the U.S. obviously could have done better. There probably could have been a lot less deaths. But we have to get a grip and realize a Mongolia or New Zealand outcome was never in the cards. New York city alone gets international visitors every year that triple New Zealands population. Multiples of that in domestic visitors. There is no way NYC wasn’t getting heavily seeded. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/764 "2020-11-23T23:10:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As for Hospital overloading we aren’t even on the radar of overloading our hospitals on anything beyond a handful of local hospitals. We’ve had that conversation before too. We have multiple levels of air transport available to move patients. Have you ever gotten a bill for air ambulance transport? Do you understand it’s expensive enough to financially ruin people? Who do you think pays for these magic air ambulances, and the doctors and nurses who service their passengers? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/765 "2020-11-23T23:15:20Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > There is no way NYC wasn’t getting heavily seeded. …the “seeded” theory is utter nonsense demonstrated by the fact that New York City ultimately **did get the outbreak under control**. It was **the failure to act quickly and decisively** that was the issue. You could have prevented the “seeding” by stopping the international visitors. We have to get a grip and realize that what is happening in America was not fated to happen and that we can, if we really wanted to, bring this back under control. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/766 "2020-11-23T23:17:34Z")
Uh huh. How many visitors from Italy had visited NYC in the month before everyone reacted. There’s evidence the disease was around in Italy last October. And I didn’t say it was fated to happen. I said it could have been handled better with less deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/767 "2020-11-23T23:24:27Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > Uh huh. How many visitors from Italy had visited NYC in the month **before everyone reacted.** …thanks for making my point. > [@FigNorton](#): > > There’s evidence the disease was around in Italy last October. There isn’t evidence that Covid was in New York from last October. > [@FigNorton](#): > > And I didn’t say it was fated to happen. Yet you act like it was fated to happen. There were ways that NYC could have been prevented from getting “heavily seeded.” ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/768 "2020-11-23T23:27:11Z")
Oh, I didn’t make your point. I asked you a question. How many people do you think had arrived in NYC from Italy (or Spain, UK or France) in the month before NZ closed down international travel? > **[COVID-19 was spreading in Italy by September 2019, study indicates](https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-11-17/COVID-19-was-spreading-in-Italy-by-September-2019-study-indicates-VuSqUttP8s/index.html)** > > Research from Milan's National Cancer Institute (INT), shows the coronavirus may have spread in the country much earlier than previously thought. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/769 "2020-11-23T23:54:44Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > How many people do you think had arrived in NYC from Italy (or Spain, UK or France) in the month before NZ closed down international travel? …do you see the words “may” have been in circulation in italy last year? Do you understand that that could also mean that it **may not** have been in circulation as well? I’m not answering a question based on a theoretical. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/770 "2020-11-24T00:00:21Z")
Lol. Your whole idea that everyone was at risk at the same time is your begged question. If everyone shutdown when NZ did, we’d all be fine. That’s theoretical too, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/771 "2020-11-24T00:14:56Z")
Btw, you should actually read the article. “Maybe” is a bit light. "The Italian research shows that 11.6 percent of nearly 1,000 healthy volunteers taking part in the lung cancer screening trial had developed coronavirus antibodies before the disease was officially detected in Italy. In another test conducted by the University of Siena, four of the cases positive for coronavirus antibodies dated back to the first week of October, indicating the individuals were infected in September. " ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/772 "2020-11-24T00:19:46Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > Lol. Your whole idea that everyone was at risk at the same time is your begged question. …LOL. I never claimed everyone was at risk at the same time. > [@FigNorton](#): > > If everyone shutdown when NZ did, we’d all be fine. NZ shut down about a month too late. It was the **stringency** of the lockdown that mattered and which broke the chain of transmission, not the timing of the lockdown. > [@FigNorton](#): > > That’s theoretical too, my friend. You aren’t my friend. > [@FigNorton](#): > > Btw, you should actually read the article. “Maybe” is a bit light. I read it. “Maybe” isn’t light at all. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/773 "2020-11-24T00:25:43Z")
Ok, you’re getting a little incomprehensible. NZ shut down a month too late? You know there’s a reality barrier where you can’t actually act on a once century event in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/774 "2020-11-24T00:42:19Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > NZ shut down a month too late? You know there’s a reality barrier where you can’t actually act on a once century event in advance …it’s okay that you don’t know exactly what happened here. I can answer any questions you like. But the timing of the lockdown wasn’t broke the chain of transmission. Covid-19 was here and was in community transmission. It was the stringency of the lockdown, not the timing that made the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/775 "2020-11-24T00:47:57Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > That’s what those who flummox you want. Not to advance a partisan political agenda, but to minimize suffering. Let me remind you of a few things… (Paraphrases, because I can’t recall exact quotes, but you will recognize them.) “The pandemic is a hoax. It’s like Russia, Russia, Russia.” “There are only a handful of cases, and those will be gone in a few days.” “The pandemic will fade away with the summer months. It will magically disappear.” “Biden is hiding in his basement.” “Dr. Fauci was against masks. I would wear one if I thought it was important.” “Biden likes to wear a mask. He wears the biggest mask all the time. He’s so afraid.” “We’re rounding the curve on the pandemic.” “We’ll have a vaccine before the election.” “You watch, after November 3 this pandemic thing will no longer be so important. They’re just trying to make me look bad.” That’s the guy at the top of the Republican ticket. That’s the guy who commandeered the Republican party from the principled conservatives for the “Build the Wall, Lock Her Up, Obama is from Kenya” crowd. That’s the guy who deliberately gutted all the federal agencies, putting incompetents and unethical criminals in charge of everything from his campaign to National Security Adviser to Department of Human Services to Department of Education. That’s the guy hugging flags (literally), waving bibles that aren’t his (literally), and threatening to prosecute women who get abortions to cater to the religious right, even though he cheats on his wife, brags to his friends about grabbing women by the pussy, who’s a bigger follower of Norman Vincent Peale than Jesus, who then tries to cast Biden as an anti-religious nut - even though Biden is a life-long practicing Catholic and Trump only goes to church for campaign rallies. Politicizing of the message comes from the President on down. > [@Joey\_P](#): > > In my store, we’ve had people use the same argument. Usually something along the lines of ‘it’s a mandate, not a law’. We generally respond, as nicely as we can with ‘Even if it’s not a law _we_ still require one’. Yeah, my chain doesn’t believe in confrontation with customers. We suck up just about anything. So yeah, we can’t even tell customers inside the store that they should be wearing a mask. Saying “I think your mask slipped” would be crossing the line. > [@](#): > > And WRT health issues, hopefully the store owner can’t be fined because they made up a fake health problem. I’m not sure. Thankfully, I don’t know of any jurisdictions who have tried. They seem smart enough to realize that the enforcement has to be against the non-compliers, not the businesses who can’t enforce it. > [@FigNorton](#): > > I don’t get this. The businesses already have authority. The governor doesn’t need to sign off on a “no shirt, no shoes, no service” policy. So Governor Abbott’s mask mandate leaves room for small children1 and people with certain health problems2 to not mask. 1Small children is not defined. 3 and under? 5 and under? 10 year olds? 2Those health problems aren’t listed or defined. All you have to do is say you have one and we can’t enquire further. I have actually tried to deal with customers - stretching my authority and nominally against store policy. Basically the governor’s mandate tells them to keep 6 ft of distance if they can’t mask, and _I_ was the one that approached him. Technically, as private property, the store has the legal authority to tell customers if they won’t wear a mask they have to leave. Technically, if the customers refuse, they can be cited for trespassing. However the loopholes in the mandate give non-compliers grounds to pursue legal remedies - they could sue us, “because I have a health problem” or “the governor said you can’t enforce it”. And the governor already said nobody should go to jail over non-compliance with state mandates on covid. He backed a business woman who opened her hair salon in violation of a local order and was taken to court, given an injunction to close, refused, and was held in contempt. She was jailed for contempt of court, not because she refused the initial county order. But the governor took her side. Hell, we got specific instructions from corporate on what not to do specifically because there was an incident somewhere where an employee tried to enforce the mask order, prevent a customer from entering, and that customer fell down. Legal nightmare for the company. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > The thing that amazes me about the “we can’t afford to keep businesses closed” crowd is that what’s keeping most of them closed is lack of customers due to fear of contagion, not some eevil government order. That’s not really true. At this point, government mandates to keep places closed and enforce crowd limits are required because otherwise too many of the public would just be out and about. Clubs, restaurants, gyms, bars, movie theaters, parties - you name it, they’re doing it if they can. > [@](#): > > By refusing to take short term measures to contain the spread AND pay for the short term economic losses, they all but guarantee long term economic losses _and_ increased long term health issues _and_ a larger total death toll. That’s exactly what I’m saying. @casdave, thanks. > [@FigNorton](#): > > There are things the U.S. obviously could have done better. There probably could have been a lot less deaths. But we have to get a grip and realize a Mongolia or New Zealand outcome was never in the cards. New York city alone gets international visitors every year that triple New Zealands population. Multiples of that in domestic visitors. There is no way NYC wasn’t getting heavily seeded. I don’t doubt we were going to be hit. By the time we knew to be concerned, the cat was out of the bag and the virus was spreading worldwide. Even hard border closures at the US would not have prevented it reaching us by then. That’s not the argument. The argument is that even after we were aware, the response has largely been a disaster. If it’s flailing about, it’s flailing by design. NYC got it’s initial surge under control by doing the hard things that the rest of the country largely wouldn’t. That shows that the U.S. is not special, following the principles would have been effective here, too. We just weren’t willing as a country to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/776 "2020-11-24T08:29:55Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > I’m not as sure of that as you. In this CNN poll, the percentage of people as of Oct 1-4, 2020 who were willing to get vaccinated was at 51% and dropping from May. 51% is not likely to be enough to get the kind of herd immunity that would allow things to go back to how they were. A recent Gallup poll has the percentage of people willing to take the vaccine since the the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines were announced has increased. The Gallup poll has the percent of people willing to take the vaccine at 58%, rising since Sept. > **[Six in 10 Americans are willing to receive COVID-19 vaccinations - Gallup](https://www.jpost.com/health-science/six-in-10-americans-are-willing-to-receive-covid-19-vaccinations-gallup-649964)** > > The willingness of Americans to accept an approved vaccination has positively improved since Pfizer/BioNTech SE and Moderna made announcements regarding their positive large-scale trials. > [@](#): > > Almost six in 10 (58%) United States citizens would agree to get vaccinated for COVID-19 if an FDA-approved immunization was available today at no cost, according to a recent [Gallup poll](https://news.gallup.com/poll/325208/americans-willing-covid-vaccine.aspx).The willingness of Americans to accept an approved vaccination has positively improved since Pfizer/BioNTech SE and Moderna made announcements that both of their vaccine candidates surpassed the efficacy benchmarks set out by researchers for their respective studies – raising the percentage of Americans approving by 8% from Gallup’s earlier poll in September, which showed that only half of Americans were willing to receive an inoculation. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/777 "2020-11-24T14:59:31Z")
I recall raising the question of how worried this Board was about the virus back in January. It was overwhelming: not worried, it’s just like the flu etc. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/778 "2020-11-24T16:54:28Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > I recall raising the question of how worried this Board was about the virus back in January. It was overwhelming: not worried, it’s just like the flu etc Yup. When provided with new information, most of us came to different conclusions, based on having different information. Science! ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/779 "2020-11-24T17:06:38Z")
I am under the impression that early testing did reveal antibodies that yested positive for Coronavirus, however a number of versions of those tests detected the wrong type of Coronavirus - which I guess is not all that surprising. I am not trashing this at all, but when taken with false positives and false negatives I can understand why the scientists are more reserved and use the term ‘may have’ rather than make a definitive statement. I know that quite a few acquaintances have said they caught ‘something’ that they think might have been coronavirus in December and January, I have also seen people on social media claim the same thing - this is merely anecdotal but it is my unserstanding that it is now possible to detect antibodies and definitively idenfify previous infections, and in some cases second infections due to the fact that the virus mutates and different versions of Covid19 can now be idenitified. I don’t really know how all this feeds into the current situation, I can only assume it is only likely to be relevant in future preparation and planning. As for further specific strains identification - it is my understanding that it is possible that these very slightly differing strains may have different qualities - some might be more infectious, some might be more deadly - I would be interested in anyine who can point out information on how the historic spread and development of varying strains or mutations affects the likely future control of the virus. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/780 "2020-11-24T17:11:14Z")
Yes that’s true, however the information was fluid, at that time. What we know now is almost opposite. I’m not blaming anyone for what’s going on, except the CCP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=40)