# Am I missing something here? (re: reopening of bars, etc... now) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356 "2020-10-06T17:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/801 "2020-11-28T17:09:11Z")
Yes, that’s exactly what’s been happening throughout the pandemic. If you’re a shop owner worried about losing you’re life’s work, I get why you want to defy restrictions - I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I get that kind of selfishness. But the maskholes over ‘freedums’, or the families that insist that they have a God-given right to have 200 guests at their child’s wedding…just eff them to hell and back. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/802 "2020-11-28T22:14:58Z")
How about a wedding with 7000 attendees? That’s right, 7000. Held in New York City, the Hasidic Jew Synagogue got fined $15K for it. [Secret Hasidic wedding with hundreds of attendees fined $15,000 for breaking coronavirus rules - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/25/hasidic-wedding-fined-new-york/) ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/803 "2020-11-28T22:46:39Z")
Your article says “hundreds” and that the exact number is unknown at this point. 7000 is just a random number Cuomo came up with for “big wedding” as far as I can tell. Is that the synagogue’s capacity? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/804 "2020-11-29T00:00:25Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > If you’re a shop owner worried about losing you’re life’s work, I get why you want to defy restrictions - I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I get that kind of selfishness. I’ve wondered about the ethicality and even legality of bars/restaurants running specials and advertising to get people to come to their establishments right now. I mean, nobody has a good reason right now to go to Buffalo Wild Wings, especially not $3 tall house beers. But they’re advertising it anyway, and I wonder about that- clearly they shouldn’t, and I’d think that the government could make a good case for prohibiting that sort of speech temporarily. I mean, I understand why the company, or why any business owner would want to keep their business going as much as possible, but at the same time, advertising bar specials seems like a breathtakingly irresponsible behavior at the current time in light of what we know about bars and COVID transmission. Ultimately, it comes back to ineffective/non-existent governmental guidelines/aid. In my mind, there should have been a comprehensive set of regulations and protections for businesses and landlords to prevent either from going out of business. Not necessarily making a profit, but not going out of business either. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/805 "2020-11-29T00:06:14Z")
I’m predicting a HUGE spike in the next few months in the College Football crowd. And here is why (stay with me, big conspiracy theory here): They are talking about the College football playoffs already, an how a team will have to have played a minimum of games to even be considered. Ohio State cancelled their second game today, and cannot miss another, or they will be OUT. I’m sure there are other teams in the same boat. Now, we all know that college athletics are the paragon of virtue and fair play and transparency (sarcasm, for those who’s meter is broke), and HEAVEN FORBID some AD or Head coach or whoever concealing test results or flat out falsifying them in order to not cancel a game. Or play that Key guy who is really gonna secure the victory, even if he may have a slight fever or has a roommate with a positive result. Never mind exposing 100’s of other people. Gotta get to the playoffs! God Lord, a perfect storm for shit-hookery all in the name of a shot at a National Title. You’ll see… you’ll see! You heard it here first! (I’m just pissed because the Pac-12 ain’t got no shot) ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/806 "2020-11-29T00:10:11Z")
That’s sorta tldr but I think I get the gist. Go Gators!(?) ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/807 "2020-11-29T00:11:40Z")
If they beat Notre Dame, sure. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/808 "2020-11-29T01:40:57Z")
Dude, the PAC-12 never has a shot…unless they’re playing Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/809 "2020-11-29T02:19:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I mean, nobody has a good reason right now to go to Buffalo Wild Wings You really should speak only for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/810 "2020-11-29T12:58:51Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > … > God Lord, a perfect storm for shit-hookery all in the name of a shot at a National Title. You’ll see… you’ll see! You heard it here first! Very plausible. With luck, this plus the recent moves towards professionalizing / unionizing the players and their rights to monetize their fame will be the big stake into the heart that kills the big money NCAA once and for all. I also believe in ponies with rainbow manes. But one can hope! > [@bump](#): > > I mean, nobody has a good reason right now to go to Buffalo Wild Wings It’s one of my guilty pleasures every 3 weeks or so. I go in for the lunch specials (offered 11am-2pm M-F for those interested.) My local outlet has about 15 seats at the bar and about 30 4-tops indoors and 10 outdoors. Since COVID started I have yet to see more than 6 customers in there besides me. Typically 3 pairs of workmen-sorta guys in matching logo t-shirts. Plus one cook, one or two servers, and a manager. Not a lot of incremental risk there. Especially if one sits outside now that it’s cooled off enough so that’s comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/811 "2020-11-29T16:32:13Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > Your article says “hundreds” and that the exact number is unknown at this point. 7000 is just a random number Cuomo came up with for “big wedding” as far as I can tell. Is that the synagogue’s capacity? I heard the number on TV, didn’t read the article, just cited it for the fact that the wedding was held and the synagogue has been fined. The exact number does appear to be unknown, but the picture looks pretty full. I’m not seeing any empty seats. In the press conference with Gov. Cuomo, the reporter asking about it says “7 to 10 thousand”, so it is a projected number where they are taking the lower number. The New York Post article says > [@](#): > > The Satmar synagogue, which has a maximum capacity of 7,000, jammed men onto bleachers filled to the rafters, the videos show. Women sat in the balcony behind a barricade. Apparently in October, they prevented [another wedding](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/18/nyregion/nyc-covid-hasidic-wedding.html) there that could have drawn 10,000 guests. I’m not sure how “state officials” came up with that number. That article also mentions a [sweet 16 party](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/14/nyregion/virus-outbreak-sweet-sixteen.html) held on Long Island with over 80 guests. 37 were infected, 270 in quarantine. Yay! > [@bump](#): > > Ultimately, it comes back to ineffective/non-existent governmental guidelines/aid. In my mind, there should have been a comprehensive set of regulations and protections for businesses and landlords to prevent either from going out of business. Not necessarily making a profit, but not going out of business either. Yes. “But SOCIALISM!” 🤨 > [@Gatopescado](#): > > Now, we all know that college athletics are the paragon of virtue and fair play and transparency (sarcasm, for those who’s meter is broke), and HEAVEN FORBID some AD or Head coach or whoever concealing test results or flat out falsifying them in order to not cancel a game. Or play that Key guy who is really gonna secure the victory, even if he may have a slight fever or has a roommate with a positive result. Never mind exposing 100’s of other people. Gotta get to the playoffs! Yep. I mean, there was already an MLB player who tested positive but attended the last World Series Game with his team. Prioritizing self over community. And college football is known for aggressively protecting players from things like rape accusations, including behind the scenes tactics to shut down investigations. Colleges readily “protect their reputation” over protecting women. Because money. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/812 "2020-11-29T16:38:59Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I mean, there was already an MLB player who tested positive but attended the last World Series Game with his team. I think you’re misremembering in an important way. His positive test result came back during the game and he left the field in the 6th. The problem was he came back out for the celebration/photos. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/813 "2020-11-29T17:34:32Z")
An to the NYC wedding, if they had very roughly 7000 attendees and they were fined $7K, that means it was a dollar a head. It would not be hard to get everyone to contribute their dollar on the way in or out. IOW, the fine is the gentlest slap on the wrist with a feather, useful more for providing fodder for RW handwringing than for altering behavior among religious leaders or their followers of any stripe. At least now everyone knows the “cost of doing COVID-spreading business” in NYC: $1/head. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/814 "2020-11-29T17:44:00Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > An to the NYC wedding, if they had very roughly 7000 attendees and they were fined $7K, that means it was a dollar a head. It would not be hard to get everyone to contribute their dollar on the way in or out. [Yakov Smirnoff voice] “In Chabad, rabbi gives you dollar bill…” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/815 "2020-11-29T19:23:41Z")
What I’m getting at is that all the public health authorities are saying to minimize or eliminate non-essential stuff like that (i.e. liking wings isn’t a “good” reason at this current point in time), and despite that, we have those places advertising specials intended to entice people to come in anyway. That seems confusing at best, and counterproductive at worst. Again… better Federal leadership and a more comprehensive aid package could have had incentives to prevent advertising like this- maybe some combination of direct anti-advertising stuff, payments to run “stay at home, brought to you by BW3” ads, and other stuff along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/816 "2020-11-29T19:55:45Z")
For sure. Irresponsible barring & restuaranting is murdering this country. We really need an equivalent of the WWII gasoline saving “Is this trip really necessary?” stuff. The existence of widespread wildly irresponsible behavior is making life harder for everyone else by shrinking the circle of what _can_ be responsible behavior. If everyone around here took their masks & distancing more seriously, a lot more older folks could be out some, not none. And more middle aged folks could be out more. As you say, by not paying business to stay closed, we leave them with the imperative to attract customers despite COVID, or go broke trying. A perverse incentive to leave rampant across the land during a pandemic for sure. To the degree I had any point at all, it’s that there _is_ (IMO) such a thing as “Responsible but still not strictly necessary restauranting or other public exposure.” It’s important to keep that idea out there in circulation if for nothing else than to debunk the anti-precaution Freedumb folks who assert the other side wants total lockdown for everyone everywhere all the time. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/817 "2020-11-29T20:00:01Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If everyone around here took their masks & distancing more seriously, a lot more older folks could be out some, not none. This. Currently my choice is dungeon or risk death. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/818 "2020-11-29T20:13:49Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > To the degree I had any point at all, it’s that there _is_ (IMO) such a thing as “Responsible but still not strictly necessary restauranting or other public exposure.” It’s important to keep that idea out there in circulation if for nothing else than to debunk the anti-precaution Freedumb folks who assert the other side wants total lockdown for everyone everywhere all the time. Oh, sure! I’m not saying people should have stayed home the entire time since this began. I’m saying that right now (i.e. late November 2020), people should be staying home as much as possible. This certainly wasn’t the case as recently as September. It seems to me that a lot of what we’re seeing these days is what amounts to a war of information, and the “good guys” are losing it for whatever reason, be it alternate realities/alternate facts devised by political parties, or simply conflicting messages driven by perverse incentives. I mean, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you don’t pay businesses to stay closed, then they’re going to advertise and do everything in their power to get as much business as possible. And when your local government’s COVID economic recovery plan is to let businesses do that, it’s even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/819 "2020-11-29T23:00:33Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m not saying people should have stayed home the entire time since this began. I’m saying that right now (i.e. late November 2020), people should be staying home as much as possible. This certainly wasn’t the case as recently as September. OK, _you personally_ may not be saying this, but lots of people most certainly _have_ been saying it at any given point in the pandemic. I remember September. The number of new cases may have been way lower, but the _discourse_ surrounding them was pretty similar to what it’s like right now. You could literally take any social media thread from September, replace “schools opening” and “college students partying” with “holiday travel,” and it would still seem current. If you go back to July, the conversation would be a little different because back then everybody was adamantly denying that there was any seasonality to this virus OR that outdoor activities were any different than indoor ones, but at _no_ point in the last eight months has the “stay at home and don’t see anybody or do anything fun” message let up. Ever. I realize I probably come across as something of a denier on these boards. I’m not. And in my personal life, I’ve been doing pretty much everything we’re told to do – cancelling holiday travel, not going to restaurants, wearing a mask in any indoor space that isn’t my own apartment, etc. But I keep feeling resentful about the messaging, in large part because it seems to be constantly shifting in ways that basically boil down to “whatever particular thing you are thinking of doing _right now_ is always wrong.” It feels like there’s perpetually some “better time” that you’re supposed to wait for, and then – oh, whoops, maybe that “better time” was back in August and September, too bad, you should have gone to see your family then, or done some nice outdoor activities like going to the beach. (Remember beach-shaming?) It’s crazymaking. And I think that’s one reason why the messaging hasn’t been terribly effective – it’s both too inconsistent AND too consistent at the same time, and if you haven’t actually been paying close attention to the data, you can be forgiven for thinking that nothing much has changed since September, because the stuff you’re hearing from the media and from the people in your life still sounds basically the same. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356/820 "2020-12-01T15:37:32Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > I think you’re misremembering in an important way. His positive test result came back during the game and he left the field in the 6th. The problem was he came back out for the celebration/photos. Fair correction, but a distinction without a difference. Sure, he wasn’t playing once he knew, but he still put himself over his teammates and everybody else around the celebrations and picture taking. That’s “Prioritizing self over community”. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > An to the NYC wedding, if they had very roughly 7000 attendees and they were fined $7K, that means it was a dollar a head. It would not be hard to get everyone to contribute their dollar on the way in or out. > > IOW, the fine is the gentlest slap on the wrist with a feather, useful more for providing fodder for RW handwringing than for altering behavior among religious leaders or their followers of any stripe. It was a $15,000 fine, but your point still stands. That’s $2 a head and some change. I found [this](https://gothamist.com/news/city-fines-synagogue-15000-massive-williamsburg-wedding): > [@](#): > > On NY1’s “Inside City Hall” Monday evening, de Blasio called the event “amazingly irresponsible” while announcing the $15,000 summons issued to the synagogue’s leaders. Additional consequences could come soon, though it was not clear what those consequences would entail. > > When asked how effective a $15,000 fine would be, the mayor said the fine is hefty enough to draw attention, but the cease-and-desist order sent by the NYC Health Commissioner Dave Chokshi would also help. > > “From this point on if there’s any further illegal activity in that building, the building will be closed down. I think that’s a pretty clear deterrent,” de Blasio told reporters. I think he’s afraid that a heftier fine would be perceived/promoted as some sort of anti-religious agenda, rather than a health violation. > [@bump](#): > > That seems confusing at best, and counterproductive at worst. Again… better Federal leadership and a more comprehensive aid package could have had incentives to prevent advertising like this- maybe some combination of direct anti-advertising stuff, payments to run “stay at home, brought to you by BW3” ads, and other stuff along those lines. A real comprehensive plan like New Zealand’s makes a lot of sense. Pay the companies to stay closed, pay the people to not work. Of course it would be expensive, but would it have been more expensive to implement back in, say, July (plenty of time to figure out that it worked) and have our economy back to a more normal position now than the approach we’ve taken of doing the minimum we can bungle and hope for the best? > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > but at _no_ point in the last eight months has the “stay at home and don’t see anybody or do anything fun” message let up. Ever. Because the situation has been crap from the beginning, and the reopenings have been rushed, which has sent our numbers higher and higher. Just because November has had a quadrupling of daily case counts (October had just over 1 million a day average, November hit over 4 million a day ave - as seen on Rachel Maddow) doesn’t mean June was a great time to open up, or that the opening up over the summer into fall was handled appropriately to keep numbers down. > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > But I keep feeling resentful about the messaging, in large part because it seems to be constantly shifting in ways that basically boil down to “whatever particular thing you are thinking of doing _right now_ is always wrong.” It feels like there’s perpetually some “better time” that you’re supposed to wait for, and then – oh, whoops, maybe that “better time” was back in August and September, too bad, you should have gone to see your family then, or done some nice outdoor activities like going to the beach. (Remember beach-shaming? If the message is perpetual “what you are doing _right now_ is wrong”, it’s because the behavior keeps getting worse, not better. Fewer people complying with mask mandates combined with opening venues for people to attend and the economic plan driving businesses to need to be open and covid exhaustion making people want to get back to normal is driving hospitalizations around the country to soar. Hospitals are filling up, not just in New York City and Houston and L.A., but in rural states, too. It’s widespread. Cases are soaring to unbelievable numbers, and people are “Ho, hum, let’s get on with life.” “Beach-shaming” was fully appropriate, and no, you shouldn’t have gone to see your family back in August and September. Going to see family now is part of what is driving numbers to ridiculous levels. That “better time” we’re waiting for apparently has to be after the vaccines get widespread distribution and use, because Americans seem incapable of executing a plan that would drive cases to manageable numbers. If we had done things right during the original shut down, we might be in a place now that wouldn’t be screaming about needing a shut down now. I mean, will you at least agree that the case numbers are soaring? Will you agree that collective behavior is what is driving the numbers sky-high? That better behavior could help control the numbers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-missing-something-here-re-reopening-of-bars-etc-now/922356.md?page=42)