# Am I surrounded by stupid sociopaths? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621 "2010-12-28T17:27:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/21 "2010-12-28T22:43:16Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Careful there, Doc. The Devil’s Advocate might demand of you a lengthy, insightful expert opinion missive supporting the re-humanization of your clientelle in the eyes of those of us who would NEVER wind up in The Penal System. > > Aw who am I kidding…consider it demanded. We love reading your stuff. The good Dr. Q is right; even in prison, most people aren’t psychopaths. Dr. Robert Hare’s research indicates that the percentage of imprisoned criminal offenders meeting criteria for prototypical psychopathy is around 20%, as opposed to around an estimated 1-4% for the general population. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/22 "2010-12-29T02:09:33Z")
You’re here, so…yeah. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/23 "2010-12-29T02:38:25Z")
It’s almost an internet meme. If a poster cites his or her intelligence by giving an IQ score or mentioning mensa membership, that poster is engaged in nothing more than ego masturbation, and most likely not as intelligent as he or she would like to believe. It is a sign of an inflated, yet fragile ego to claim that those surrounding that person are inferior. It’s a grandiose sense of self, and I would like to point out to this “hypothetical” Sass that “grandiose sense of self” is one of the traits of the sociopath as given by the DSM-IV. So in short, it is not the people around this hypothetical Sass that are stupid sociopaths - it is most likely Sass herself. She might as well be screaming “I’m not crazy - everybody else is crazy!!!” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/24 "2010-12-29T02:52:48Z")
Well here’s the interesting thing. On one extreme you may have a highly intelligent and logical person who acts solely in their own interest and without regard to others. Indeed logic would dictate that a person would act in their own rational self-interest (Spock’s final words aside). Of course, we call someone who acts completely without any regard for others a “sociopath”. On the other extreme you have someone who acts in a completely ethical manner in a sense that they will always put other people ahead of themselves regardless of the consequences. This is often illogical and could even be considered ‘stupid’ at times. Most people, however, will fall somewhere in between. So to the OP, it will appear that anyone who does not act in her best interest (or their own interests as she perceives them) is “stupid” or a “sociopath”. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/25 "2010-12-29T03:54:54Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > It’s almost an internet meme. If a poster cites his or her intelligence by giving an IQ score or mentioning mensa membership, that poster is engaged in nothing more than ego masturbation, and most likely not as intelligent as he or she would like to believe. It is a sign of an inflated, yet fragile ego to claim that those surrounding that person are inferior. It’s a grandiose sense of self, and I would like to point out to this “hypothetical” Sass that “grandiose sense of self” is one of the traits of the sociopath as given by the DSM-IV. > > So in short, it is not the people around this hypothetical Sass that are stupid sociopaths - it is most likely Sass herself. She might as well be screaming “I’m not crazy - everybody else is crazy!!!” I will concede that a lot of people are really fucking annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/26 "2010-12-29T04:15:24Z")
Unless you cry for every person who dies on the planet (with each passing second) just like you would for a loved one, then you are yourself at least 99.99999% sociopathic. The care that we give others is, almost certainly, mostly for selfish reasons. Our sadness at the loss of our loved ones is itself pitying ourselves for what we’ve lost. Overall, there’s not a big correlation between sociability, manners, and open kindness. Very nice people can be racists. Very sociable and fun people can have poor manners. Stone cold murderers could have great manners. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/27 "2010-12-29T05:04:13Z")
I’m kind of in between the 2 choices on the poll. I think most people are kind of meh, but society puts great pressure on them to engage in stupid, even sociopathic, behavior. What we learn about being an individual and living in the world are contradictory enough that it’s all but unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/28 "2010-12-29T05:59:30Z")
I pitted the OP [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13296278#post13296278) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/29 "2010-12-29T07:00:59Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Sometimes everybody around you seems to be a stupid sociopath because of different factors - Qadgop has more of them than most people because he works in a prison. I have more of them because I work in a downtown public library; I also am surrounded by more drunks, more crackheads, and more screaming children. Now that you say it, it really seems obvious, but I hadn’t realized before that there are no two populations more similar than prison inmates and library patrons. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/30 "2010-12-29T11:08:08Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > My presumptions holding, (and please do not disrail the argument by rejecting my presumptions), the vast majority of people are dumber and less ethical. There’s no argument to derail. You’ve set presumptions that force a particular conclusion, and you object to anyone challenging your presumptions. It strikes me as an incredibly arrogant exercise in self-adulation, not an attempt to have a real discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/31 "2010-12-29T11:14:48Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > Because I would rather be surrounded by genius saints. Who wants to be surrounded by inferiors in mind and spirit at almost all levels of society? And almost every restaurant, tv show, movie, music program, is designed for the Stu-paths? How do you intend to endear yourself to them? It might only be the frank way in which you’re phrasing your posts in this thread, but you’re honestly just not coming across as the sort of person that anyone - smart or stupid - would pick for _their_ circle of friends. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/32 "2010-12-29T14:13:59Z")
I think it’s a safe bet that, if we polled the acquaintances of those “genius saints”, less than 49/50 of them would agree that the appellation was well deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Heropsychodreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Heropsychodreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heropsychodreamer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/33 "2010-12-29T14:29:15Z")
A smarter person does not make a better person, therefore you should not judge who you want to be around based on how smart you might think they are. A person who thinks they are smarter than most others is typically a person others don’t want to be around anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/34 "2010-12-29T14:51:35Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > So, is Sass surrounded by Stupid Sociopaths? Are you surrounded by them? These are two separate questions, which you don’t allow us to answer separately. The kind of mistake a Stupid Sociopath would make… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/35 "2010-12-29T14:53:21Z")
As another example of my previous comments–I think the OP displays the same mistakes shown by climate scientists who over-use models. Just like the OP, they put labels on things and think that those labels now have some meaning regarding how those thngs will act. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/36 "2010-12-29T15:04:18Z")
Last thing I really want to do is get into some sort of intellectual dick-measuring contest with my friends. I really have no idea of my position on whatever scale of smart to stupid is out there. I know there are dumb people in the world, and I know there are people vastly more intelligent and quick-witted than me, but people are too complex to be positioned and selected on a simple linear scale. I get, and give respect, compliments, advice and challenge from/to all of my fellows, at different times, regardless who they are, and how they compare to me, in whatever way that would even be possible. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/37 "2010-12-29T16:58:40Z")
Basically, OP, you’d be surrounded by the offspring of Britney Spears (stupid) and Hannibal Lecter (sociopath). ---
**Author:** ![No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/38 "2010-12-29T17:22:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sociopathy isn’t a relative term. It’s a specific condition, and it has no particular correlation to intelligence. A sociopath isn’t someone “less conscientious” than you, a sociopath is someone who completely lacks empathy or feelings of “guilt.” They’re comparatively rare. You aren’t “surrounded” by them (though you may know one or two, and even like them - they can be superficially very charming). > > I would say that most people are _assholes_ to one degree or another (or at least capable of it, depending on circumstances), but most assholes aren’t true sociopaths. Your response is very eloquent and precise. I admit traditionally a ‘sociopath’ in the proper definition is a diagnosis in psychiatry. But, I would ask only whether you have considered that Sociopathy is not an all-in or all-out proposition (dichotomy), but rather there may be degrees of sociopathic nature. That is how I used it in my original post. A serial killer would be the most extreme; but what of those who committ animal cruelty by neglecting to fee dtheir dogs, who are chained up 24 hours a day? (Or so I saw on that PETA program where they rescue animals). Your argument is technically correct, but I have heard that the new DSM will have a more nuanced view of anti-social behavior, allowing people who are not full blown psychopaths to be included. What do you think of this? > [@](#): > > So the answer to the OP is that she is not surrounded by “stupid sociopaths,” but that most people she comes in contact with have character flaws and are capable of stupid beliefs and actions. Your argument here is strong, and meets the occam’s razor test compared to mine, that is to say, it is more likely your last argument is true than my sweeping one is. You are no doubt being far more objective and accurate then my argument was (but true or not, can I be blamed for thinking I am surrounded by selfish fools? Admit you succumb to the temptation too) > [@ZenBeam](#): > > These are two separate questions, which you don’t allow us to answer separately. The kind of mistake a Stupid Sociopath would make… I know you are trying to be funny, but why can’t you answer both questions? What did I do that was so ‘stupid’? Why would that be sociopathic? Let’s play your game: Your claim that I made a mistake, which would make me a stupid sociopath; but if your claim is unfounded, then calling someone a stupid sociopath without foundation would itself be the actions of a stupid sociopath, which would make you one, since you made such an unfounded claim. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/39 "2010-12-29T17:52:24Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > Your argument is technically correct, but I have heard that the new DSM will have a more nuanced view of anti-social behavior, allowing people who are not full blown psychopaths to be included. What do you think of this? You’re correct that the proposed new criteria for personality disorder allows for more gradation, but as it is the current diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder allows for people who are not full blown psychopaths to be included, which is one of the problems that the new DSM is trying to clarify. The original intent of the Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) diagnosis was to supplant what had previously been called sociopathy and what Dr. Hervey Cleckley and Dr. Robert Hare were then calling psychopathy. The DSM comittee even went as far as to declare the terms sociopathy and psychopathy “obsolete” in the DSM. The problem was that it didn’t quite work out that way. As it turned out, the criteria for a clinical Antisocial Personality Disorder were a lot broader than Hare and Cleckley’s research into the personality of psychopaths - e.g., most psychopaths meet the criteria for ASPD, but most people with ASPD are not psychopaths, yet the DSM lumps them together. ASPD criteria focuses a lot on general criminal behavior (“pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation the rights of other since age 15”) that 80% of the prison population will meet, that being pretty much the reason that they’re there. Dr. Hare’s criteria for psychopathy are narrower, requiring evidence of specific personality traits like lack of remorse and callousness rather than just general criminal behavior, and determining who is and isn’t a psychopath rather than who does and doesn’t have ASPD is a lot more useful in predicting treatment outcomes, instituional adjustment, violent recidivism, etc. The new DSM criteria appear to be an effort to differentiate the garden variety ASPD diagnosis from the full blown, cold blooded psychopath. [Psychopathy and Antisocial Personality Disorder: A Case of Diagnostic Confusion](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LOKdlk0TkCsJ:www.psychiatrictimes.com/dsm-iv/content/article/10168/54831+aspd+and+psychopathy&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621/40 "2010-12-29T18:22:35Z")
I’m curious: is the OP presenting a veiled justification for selective breeding or population culling? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-surrounded-by-stupid-sociopaths/565621.md?page=3)