# Am I the only one opposed to dual citizenship? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521 "2011-02-16T00:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/61 "2011-02-19T01:26:40Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Indeed, why should you be? Xenophobic attitudes can be found amongst any nationality if you meet the right (wrong?) people. :rolleyes: That snark should have been more directly pointed to that specific American. I tried to phrase it as such with _among_ as I find it a little less among Europeans. Certainly it’s not rare here in Japan. > [@](#): > > Since the Republic of Korea has a mandatory service requirement for its citizens, American servicemembers who meet the requirements for Korean citizenship are subject to basically being drafted into the Republic of Korea armed forces to serve their country (no, the OTHER one). Taiwan also have mandatory service requirements for male citizens so that’s something our son would may face. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/62 "2011-02-19T06:46:03Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > That snark should have been more directly pointed to that specific American. I tried to phrase it as such with _among_ as I find it a little less among Europeans. Certainly it’s not rare here in Japan. > Taiwan also have mandatory service requirements for male citizens so that’s something our son would may face. To be honest, I find myself mildly curious as to how many Korean-Americans have ended up serving in the ROK armed forces due to that rule, either by intent or by oversight. Would be interesting to run into one. “Anyoughhaseo!” “Howdy!” “Huh?” “I said Howdy! I’m from Houston!” “But… why are you in a Korean uniform?” “Funny story, I was really drunk during that whole period when I got my assignment rip…” ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/63 "2011-02-19T07:19:51Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > To be honest, I find myself mildly curious as to how many Korean-Americans have ended up serving in the ROK armed forces due to that rule, either by intent or by oversight. Would be interesting to run into one. Not sure about Korea, but I know loads of Israeli/American dual citizens who’ve had to wrangle out of serving in the army. It’s apparently not that difficult for people who’ve never lived in Israel, or haven’t spent significant time there. But they’re very strict about it, and people who are of army age and aren’t serving have to carry their deferments around with them all the time. A rather naive and foolish friend who was a dual citizen tried to go to Egypt with me and another friend on her (brand new) American passport, when she’d entered the country on her Israeli passport. My other friend and I didn’t realize what she was doing until we were well on our way to Egypt and despite our worries, she was unconcerned. Of course, when we got to the border, the following ensued. Them: Why doesn’t your passport have any stamps? Her: I entered Israel on my Israeli passport. Them: You’re an Israeli citizen? Her: Yeah. Them: Where’s your army deferment? Her: It’s in my Israeli passport. Them: Yeah, you’re not leaving the country. She cried and cried and cried but strangely enough, the Israeli border guards aren’t particularly softhearted and wouldn’t let her go to Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/64 "2011-02-19T10:41:53Z")
I think dual citizenship is fine. I thinking of moving to a country where you must live there as a productive member of society for 5 years before becoming naturalized. I’m not saying I will become a dual citizen, but it is nice to have the protection after building a life there to not have to give it all up because your work visa is not renewed or the country simply says, “Get the fuck out!” ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/65 "2011-02-19T15:05:22Z")
It’s not clear to me why those of us opposed to dual citizenship are being accused of xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Barzune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@Barzune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barzune)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/66 "2017-07-29T22:01:38Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > Interestingly, I have no problem with it. > > I live in Australia, I vote here and pay taxes, and I’m a citizen. I’m an American by birth, where, incidentally, I’m still required to pay taxes, even though I don’t live there. I have a deep and abiding interest in how America does, as a result, and thus I retain my citizenship and I vote there. > > It’s not hard, I’m a bit of both. Sorry it bothers you. Why, in Heaven’s name, would you want to pay taxes to a country where you do not reside? As far as we can tell, the United States ( which is only one of about 35 American countries, by the way) is the only country in the world that legally enforces taxation upon any unfortunate individual who happened to spend the day of their birth in that country. That simply goes opposite to the famous “reason” for the U.S. revolution: “No Taxation Without Representation”. Just asking. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/67 "2017-07-29T22:28:43Z")
> [@Barzune](#): > > Why, in Heaven’s name, would you want to pay taxes to a country where you do not reside? > > As far as we can tell, the United States ( which is only one of about 35 American countries, by the way) is the only country in the world that legally enforces taxation upon any unfortunate individual who happened to spend the day of their birth in that country. > > That simply goes opposite to the famous “reason” for the U.S. revolution: > “No Taxation Without Representation”. > > Just asking. Just be glad there’s no tax on zombie threads. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/68 "2017-07-30T03:55:29Z")
Besides, you still have representation, in the form of the senators and congressmen from wherever your last home of record was. Now, if it was taxation without _residence…_ ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/69 "2017-07-30T05:12:40Z")
One reason not to renounce American citizenship when you move to another country is the $2350 per-person fee to file Forms DS-4080 and DS-4081. And that fee is not in lieu of taxes — it’s to reimburse the government for its cost to ascertain how much tax you still need to pay! (When this thread was started the fee was only $450; it was free the year before that.) When my daughter traveled to the U.S. I told her to keep both passports handy at the checkpoints in case there were confused questions, but to make sure she showed the appropriate passport to the appropriate immigration. I didn’t want her re-entering Thailand with a 30-day entry stamp! ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/70 "2017-07-30T13:25:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Multinational identity has always been a possibility for the rich- look at how complex the national identities of Europe’s royalty can be. Now the middle-class and even the poor can maintain families, friendships and business contacts around the world. > > I have a friend who was born with three separate citizenships (parents from two different countries had her and raised her mostly in the US, but she’s split a lot of time between the three countries and has close family in all of them.) She tells me that she can keep those citizenships, but if it ever matters (like she needs consular services, is in a hostage crisis, or a war situation) she has to identify herself as primarily American or risk losing her citizenship. Seems fair to me. It may seem fair to you, but I think you are wrong on the fact. It is actually difficult and expensive to lose US citizenship. Not that I have ever used a consular service (outside of applying for a passport and reporting the birth of an American citizen abroad). Yes, I declared allegiance to Lizzie and to Canada. I have voted in both countries, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/71 "2017-07-30T13:38:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, isn’t it extremely difficult to renounce one’s U.S. citizenship? At least formally. I think the U.S. is one of the few (if not the only) country that will allow its citizens to renounce citizenship without first having acquired another. In other words, you can renounce your citizenship and the U.S. will let you become stateless. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/72 "2017-07-30T17:56:46Z")
Actually I believe that changed at some point … am not in reach of search resources now but will look at it when I am… ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/73 "2017-07-31T12:43:06Z")
This thread reminded me of an interesting bit of immigration ‘trivia’ I heard. Apparently the US will allow you to take on a second nationality only if it is through marriage. I.e. if you are an American and marry a French person, you can voluntarily take on French as a dual cititzenship. But only if the spouse is French. You cannot just decide to become French because you like snails in garlic butter. If you did that, you would be expected to give up the US passport. Don’t know if it is true, but that is what I heard. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/74 "2017-07-31T13:45:27Z")
I don’t recall if it ever got brought up in here, but my understanding was just that the US simply treated dual-citizenship as a non-issue, which is to say, you can’t be a citizen of more than two countries, so they don’t really care what papers you have for other countries. Certainly not enough to punish you for them in most cases. Kind of like how the FCC looks at ham radio. Most of the time, they just don’t want to be bothered enough to deal with it, so they ignore it as long as hams don’t cause problems for other folks. ---
**Author:** ![kferr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/75 "2017-07-31T15:39:18Z")
> [@Orville\_mogul](#): > > This thread reminded me of an interesting bit of immigration ‘trivia’ I heard. Apparently the US will allow you to take on a second nationality only if it is through marriage. I.e. if you are an American and marry a French person, you can voluntarily take on French as a dual cititzenship. > > But only if the spouse is French. You cannot just decide to become French because you like snails in garlic butter. If you did that, you would be expected to give up the US passport. > > Don’t know if it is true, but that is what I heard. Nope, not true. I was born and raised in America to American parents. In 1995 I moved to the UK for work on a work permit. After 4 years I was able to convert that to a permanent resident visa. A year after that I applied for naturalization and so became dual US/UK. The US is one of only 2 countries that taxes citizens world-wide income. But due to tax treaties all I had to do file US tax forms, all my tax is paid in the UK. Then a few years ago the US introduced the FATCA act with the goal preventing people from hiding money in offshore tax havens. This requires foreign financial institutions to report on any US citizen customers. This resulted in many foreign financial institutions to say “fuck that” and not accept US citizens as customers. I discovered this when I wanted to move some money from savings into a UK administered bond fund. So I jumped through all the hoops and renounced my US citizenship 3 years ago. If I had to leave that money in a savings account it would have earned about £2000 in interest. In the bond fund it’s earned over £30k and I’ll be able to retire far sooner than before. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/76 "2017-07-31T16:01:52Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > I live in Australia, I vote here and pay taxes, and I’m a citizen. I’m an American by birth, where, incidentally, I’m still required to pay taxes, even though I don’t live there. This zombie post cannot be allowed to stand. Americans, regardless of where they live, are subject to IRS rules. If you have earned income, that income is subject to federal income tax. Your income level after completing the required tax forms determine whether or not you pay taxes on that income. For Americans living overseas, and meet the foreign overseas tests, your actual tax that you are required to pay may be zero. It’s called [foreign earned income exclusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion). In 2011, at the time of the zombie post, that exclusion was US$92,900. For 2016 income the exclusion jumped to US$101,300. I never had to pay US income tax when I lived in OZ. My income never exceeded the foreign earned income exclusion. Unless **Gleena** was earning more than AU$91,288.80 in 2011 (the exchange rate was 0.98286), she paid no US federal income tax. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/77 "2017-07-31T17:15:41Z")
Interestingly enough, one exception to this is US military stationed overseas. They’re still considered to “live” in their home states and pay taxes (or don’t, depending on state tax laws) accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/78 "2017-08-01T11:05:36Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > This zombie post cannot be allowed to stand. > > Americans, regardless of where they live, are subject to IRS rules. If you have earned income, that income is subject to federal income tax. Your income level after completing the required tax forms determine whether or not you pay taxes on that income. For Americans living overseas, and meet the foreign overseas tests, your actual tax that you are required to pay may be zero. It’s called [foreign earned income exclusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion). In 2011, at the time of the zombie post, that exclusion was US$92,900. For 2016 income the exclusion jumped to US$101,300. > > I never had to pay US income tax when I lived in OZ. My income never exceeded the foreign earned income exclusion. Unless **Gleena** was earning more than AU$91,288.80 in 2011 (the exchange rate was 0.98286), she paid no US federal income tax. Oh hai. I was, and I did. And further, I paid accountants to work this out for me. In other years when I was under the threshold, I still had to get people to work this out for me. This is a de facto tax on expats, rather than a de jure one. So yes, my elderly post can be allowed to stand. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/79 "2017-08-01T14:00:45Z")
Coming back… ok, if I understand correctly the various sites including the State Department’s, you **can** renounce US citizenship (while abroad) in such a way as to become stateless, but the Department _may_ decline to process or concede on demand if they see a problem with it; and since the Lozada case in the early 2000’s the rule is renunciation does not proceed if you intend to continue legal residence in US territory, unless there is another US-recognized citizenship under whom you’d be a resident alien. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521/80 "2017-08-02T06:35:05Z")
> [@kferr](#): > > Nope, not true. I was born and raised in America to American parents. In 1995 I moved to the UK for work on a work permit. After 4 years I was able to convert that to a permanent resident visa. A year after that I applied for naturalization and so became dual US/UK. The US is one of only 2 countries that taxes citizens world-wide income. But due to tax treaties all I had to do file US tax forms, all my tax is paid in the UK. But does the US government know that you have a British passport? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-opposed-to-dual-citizenship/571521.md?page=5)