# Am I the only one who didn't like Brokeback Mountain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 2, 2006, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003 "2006-08-02T09:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/61 "2006-08-02T20:02:49Z")
[QUOTE=Unauthorized Cinnamon] Like others, I lacked sympathy for the characters. There were so many other options than marrying women and cheating. I kept thinking at them: “Move to San Francisco and be happy together for Christ’s sake!” Or with some creative thinking, they could have stayed in the same region and profession, and lived together - say as bachelor cousins. It’s not like they were mincing around like Carson from Queer Eye and no one could miss that they were gay. [/QUOTE] But I doubt they would have known about San Francisco or any gay scene or even cared. Well, maybe Jack. Anyway, these weren’t sophisticated guys, especially Ennis, who wouldn’t even bother to go to Texas much less move to a big city. The big pipe dream was starting their own ranch and Ennis knew how that would end up - him and Jack dead in a ditch with their dicks flopping along the road behind some pickup truck. Who can blame him for trying to play it straight? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/62 "2006-08-02T20:04:21Z")
Do you think these guys even _heard_ of San Francisco being a gay mecca? They’re out in the middle of nowhere. They are clueless on how other gay men live their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/63 "2006-08-02T20:10:25Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Jules and Vincent KILL people in _Pulp Fiction_. That’s just plain wrong. Does that make it a bad _movie_? [/QUOTE] No, that makes it a baaaad-aaaassed movie. 🙂 Nobody’s really debating the wrong thing, it seems. Not the thread for that, is it? The movie touched me deeply. I don’t believe the tale could exist in any form of the main characters were not who they were. I mean, one doesn’t alter the foundation of a tale and then go ahead and say it’s the same tale, and let’s go and enjoy it now. After all, it wouldn’t have been much of a movie if Quint, Hooper and Brody had gone out tarpon fishing, now would it? 😃 San Francisco is **what**??? Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/64 "2006-08-02T20:14:25Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] I haven’t seen the movie yet, not being a big fan of romance movies, and at this point the best masterpiece ever made could hardly live up to the hype. 😃 [/QUOTE] I say it’s worth seeing at least twice. Once to get the brouhaha and it’s inevitable disappointments out of the way, and again to actually enjoy the film without all the baggage. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/65 "2006-08-02T20:16:36Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Jules and Vincent KILL people in _Pulp Fiction_. That’s just plain wrong. Does that make it a bad _movie_? Who are you arguing with? Are there people in this thread who are saying that cheating on ones spouse is OK? [/QUOTE] No, but I don’t have to like the film becuase they are. Did you read the OP? "_Am I the only one who didn’t like Brokeback Mountain? "_ Are you somehow saying that I have to like Brokeback Mtn, as one of my reasons seems invalid to you? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/66 "2006-08-02T20:18:06Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] Do you think these guys even _heard_ of San Francisco being a gay mecca? They’re out in the middle of nowhere. They are clueless on how other gay men live their lives. [/QUOTE] They didn’t even think of themselves as gay. Ennis especially, only knew he liked what he had with Jack, and that was about it. Jack seemed to know he preferred men, but also probably would never have said “I’m gay.” If they had ever heard about San Francisco, it’d be “that’s where the queers are.” Neither of these guys would have identified with that. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/67 "2006-08-02T20:22:38Z")
An interesting question is whether or not they actually considered themselves gay? Or wanted to admit it. I think it is clear that Heath LEdger’s character, although he is fully on board with being in love with Jake Gyllenhall’s character, is not prepared to think of himself as gay. As far as he is considered it isn’t that he loves men over women, it is that he loves Jake over anybody and if there wasn’t Jake ( I apologize, I don’t remember the character’s names) he wouldn’t go find anoter guy to be with. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/68 "2006-08-02T20:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] Enos’s father showed him first-hand what the result of that kind of “creative thinking” is. [/quote] I see what you’re saying, but that’s why they need to pretend to be related - hell even half-brothers wouldn’t have to have the same last name. > [@](#): > > You’re right about San Francisco, though. Plenty of job prospects for two cowhands there. Why didn’t they think of that? No, how silly of me - I’m sure there have never been any unskilled and/or manual labor jobs in a big city. And hey, Ennis seemed to have encountered enough forbidden knowledge to do the deed, while Jack was quite comfortable cruising for a boy whore in Mexico. As a couple, they were hardly sheltered naifs. Yeah, I get that the point is they’re not functioning rationally due to massive social pressures. I just don’t have enough sympathy for that over a long term. I can empathize with a character who acts stupid in the heat of the moment - no one is completely rational. But spending decades quietly bemoaning how unfair it all is, without sparing either the brain cells or the balls to do something to change it, just turns me off. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/69 "2006-08-02T20:24:38Z")
The thing no one’s mentioned, but I think explains so much of why Ennis is the way he is and behaves the way he does, is the story he tells Jack about the two old cowboys that had a farm together and were brutally murdered by their neighbors when he was a boy. His father took him and his brother out specifically to show them the body of the murdered man as a lesson–and I think that lesson stuck. It’s why he shuts himself off emotionally as much as possible (except for those moments when it all comes pouring out in an uncontrolled burst), tries to shut and lock that closet door, and goes ahead with his marriage even after he can’t deny the truth about himself… with disastrous results for everyone concerned. And I do think that marriage would’ve ended badly even if Ennis had never seen Jack again. Ennis tells this story of the murdered men when Jack first suggests that they go off and get a farm of their own to run. Maybe it was possible that they could have gone away to some place together, as Jack wants to, but since this memory is always in Ennis’s mind, he won’t even consider it. He’s too afraid. Understanding this about him, I can sympathize and feel sorry about what he’s done with his own life, Jack’s, and his wife’s because of this fear. I’ve seen this movie about 5 or 6 times now, and the things that moved me the first time still do. The scene where Ennis finds the shirts always chokes me up. OTOH, on repeated viewings, I do think some of the scenes between their leaving the mountain and getting back together 4 years later drag a bit, but the beauty of a DVD is I can skip over those parts in a second if I don’t feel like watching them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/70 "2006-08-02T20:26:44Z")
[QUOTE=mack] I say it’s worth seeing at least twice. Once to get the brouhaha and it’s inevitable disappointments out of the way, and again to actually enjoy the film without all the baggage. [/QUOTE] Heh, I may actually do that, on the assumption it is worth the investment. Lots of people have said that the movie has more depth and cinematic quality than romances usually do, so I may overcome my adversion to the genre and actually see this thing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/71 "2006-08-02T21:28:20Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] 😕 Like what? [/quote] [Like](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=263298) [a](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=298367) [motherfuck](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=345230). > [@](#): > > To the contrary, “Brokeback Mountain” was only a short story, first published in _The New Yorker_. The screenplay greatly expanded the story, fleshed out the characters, and introduced additional characters and scenes. Wow. Well, they should have spent some time writing scenes showing things happening. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/72 "2006-08-02T21:42:41Z")
[QUOTE=Anaamika] If I started a thread about it, would you answer in more detail? Do you think it’s appropriate? Or should I just drop it? [/QUOTE] I don’t know how much more detail I have to offer. i’ve picked up guys in bars, fucked them and sent them on their way. I’ve dated and romanced men. Depends on the guy, what I’m looking for, what they’re looking for, etc. If you start a thread I’ll at least read it. > [@Priceguy](#): > > If that scene had been between two people who had had sex previously, I doubt I would have raised an eyebrow. But this was their first time, there had been nothing romantic between them previously. The first time wasn’t about romance. It was about horniness mixed with affection (recall the scene where Ennis opened up a little about his life and Jack said something to the effect of that was the most he’d heard Ennis say? That was the start of the affection), which developed into love. > [@Priceguy](#): > > I’m not even sure how Ennis managed to be certain that Jack wouldn’t elbow his nose right off his face when he did what he did. You mean other than the fact that _Jack initiated it_? They were in the tent together, Jack pulled Ennis’s hand down to his crotch, Ennis wigged slightly, Jack held onto Ennis’s face while unbuckling his own pants, then Ennis turns him over. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The point is- they were cheating on their spouses. That’s just plain wrong. With respect, if you’re going to hang your entire analysis on the film’s quality on a point this blindingly simplistic, you’re pretty much wasting your time in this thread. > [@davenportavenger](#): > > I know things were unbelievably hard for gay people but that doesn’t mean that you need to ruin those two women’s lives, or the lives of those children, by turning it into a grand lie. It is better to do without true love than to destroy so many people. I think you’re way overstating the case here. Neither of the wives were shown to have been “destroyed.” The one child we track, Alma Jr, seems to be working to develop a relationship with Ennis at movie’s end. Any damage done to the relationships came from the _emotional_ distance that Ennis put between himself and everyone else, not the physical adultery. > [@Anaamika](#): > > I didn’t like the Mexican prostitute thing, either though. Especially the way it was phrased…Jack says something like “What i can’t get from you, I get from them.” That reduces it to only gay sex in my mind. And I thought the point of the movie was they had more than just sex! He’s not talking about sex as much as he’s talking about intimate companionship. Without getting too maudlin about it, there are times when I just need the touch of another man. It has nothing to do with any sexual desire. As for any STDs Jack might have picked up, in the 70s any STD you got was cleared up with a shot of antibiotics, so it really wasn’t something people spent a lot of time worrying about. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/73 "2006-08-02T21:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] The first time wasn’t about romance. [/quote] And I didn’t think it was. Damn this second language curse. There had been nothing romantic/sexual/amorous or anything of the sort between them. They were workbuddies, nothing else, until that point. > [@](#): > > You mean other than the fact that _Jack initiated it_? They were in the tent together, Jack pulled Ennis’s hand down to his crotch, Ennis wigged slightly, Jack held onto Ennis’s face while unbuckling his own pants, then Ennis turns him over. I guess I’ll have to rewatch it. It just looked violent to me. Now, I’ve been called a “knight in Camelot” on this board, but _I_ would at least ask someone, or somehow make sure they were in on it, before I fucked them in the ass. I didn’t see Ennis doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/74 "2006-08-02T22:48:35Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] And I didn’t think it was. Damn this second language curse. There had been nothing romantic/sexual/amorous or anything of the sort between them. They were workbuddies, nothing else, until that point. [/quote] Well, no, it was subtle, but there were signs of a growing affection between the two. The aforementioned scene with Ennis telling something about his past for example. > [@Priceguy](#): > > I would at least ask someone, or somehow make sure they were in on it, before I fucked them in the ass. You should embroider this on a pillow. But seriously, I think that taking your pants off and letting a guy flip you over is a pretty clear indication that you’re into it. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/75 "2006-08-02T22:54:40Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] You should embroider this on a pillow. [/quote] You know, I just might. > [@](#): > > But seriously, I think that taking your pants off and letting a guy flip you over is a pretty clear indication that you’re into it. I’m sure he was in on it, like I said. It just _looked_ more than a rape than anything. My experience in the wide world of gay sex is sadly lacking, but I think you’ve broken protocol just by flipping someone over. I’d be pissed if someone did that to me. You don’t just flip someone over and ram your cock in his ass. It’s just rude. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/76 "2006-08-02T23:06:15Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] You know, I just might.I’m sure he was in on it, like I said. It just _looked_ more than a rape than anything. My experience in the wide world of gay sex is sadly lacking, but I think you’ve broken protocol just by flipping someone over. I’d be pissed if someone did that to me. **You don’t just flip someone over and ram your cock in his ass.** It’s just rude. [/QUOTE] Sometimes, that is exactly what you do. It depends on the situation. Man to man sex isn’t always sweet and romantic, there is a definite time and place for rough, bordering on (or actually) violent action. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/77 "2006-08-02T23:09:04Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] Sometimes, that is exactly what you do. [/quote] I hope I never run into anyone who thinks that’s appropriate behaviour in a first sexual encounter. > [@](#): > > Man to man sex isn’t always sweet and romantic Nor is any other kind. > [@](#): > > there is a definite time and place for rough, bordering on (or actually) violent action. Like in all other forms of sex. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/78 "2006-08-02T23:20:09Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I hope I never run into anyone who thinks that’s appropriate behaviour in a first sexual encounter. [/quote] I bet if you do, you say something before he gets your pants off. ---
**Author:** ![footloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@footloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/footloose)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/79 "2006-08-03T00:38:03Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] When they met, Ennis was already engaged to be married (date set, I believe). He was a cheater from the get-go. [/QUOTE] Hey, look! He hit the weather vane! You still missed the barn, though. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/80 "2006-08-03T00:49:51Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] An interesting question is whether or not they actually considered themselves gay? Or wanted to admit it. I think it is clear that Heath LEdger’s character, although he is fully on board with being in love with Jake Gyllenhall’s character, is not prepared to think of himself as gay. As far as he is considered it isn’t that he loves men over women, it is that he loves Jake over anybody and if there wasn’t Jake ( I apologize, I don’t remember the character’s names) he wouldn’t go find anoter guy to be with. [/QUOTE] Oh god. This entire post is gonna be a spoiler. Hmmm. How the hell do you code that again? **Gangster’s** post makes me want to finally ask this question. It’s been bugging me, pardon the naughty pun. I’m not asking to start a range war, but to ask what others think. There’s the scene where Heath’s character starts to have sex with his wife and suddenly and it seemed rather aggressively flips her over onto her belly/knees, so he could enter her from behind. Are we to think that he A) can only become deeply/aggresively aroused by having sex from behind her, B) that he was about to have anal sex with her and _that_ aroused him deeply, or some other notion? Her expression- which was held for just a quick beat before cutting away, spoke volumes and volumes. She acted with her face, not her vocal chords, IMHO. So, what do we think of that moment? Cool. It worked. Okay, so aside from that, I am complete agreement with **Gangster** here. He knows he loves Jake more than anyone else, but I think he doesn’t know why and it tortures him not to fully know why, and I suspect we are to feel that he’s tortured by what he understands to be homosexual love and lust. That important moment when the first season up there on the ole mountain ends, and he walks down the sidewalk back in townand has to vomit in the alleyway said to me that he was just enormously pained by his own drives and choices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003.md?page=5)