# Am I the only one who didn't like Brokeback Mountain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 2, 2006, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003 "2006-08-02T09:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/141 "2006-08-06T01:26:22Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] I went back to re-read the OP and I found one of the problems. This is a great example of a viewer not paying attention, and not realizing (or caring) that they haven’t been paying attention, then blaming at least one aspect of the movie for their own inattentiveness. The careful viewer would have made note of 1) the scene where Alma Jr. accidentially brings down the display of nuts in the grocery store where Ennis has just brought the children when he gets a call to go to work. Alma’s working but then says she’ll call her sister to come get the kids. Alma Jr. knocks against the display and glass bottles come crashing down on the floor, spraying broken glass and nuts everywhere. Her boss comes to see what happened. Instead of being pissed off, the way most bosses would be, he clearly cares more about Alma being upset. That was a foreshadowing of what was to come, and 2) the scene where Ennis and Alma are in the courtroom and _their divorce is being granted_, both of which lead up to 2) Alma being married to her former boss. Now, not everyone would catch all of that. In fact, when I first saw it I knew the guy she was married to was familiar, but didn’t remember where I’d seen him. It was only on the 2nd viewing that I recognized him during the grocery store scene and understood that the look on his face meant more than I’d realized during my first viewing. Still, the OP clearly missed the divorce-granted scene, which was a pretty clear indication that in the dinner scene that other guy was her new husband and Ennis was a guest (invited because of the daughters). Heads-up were given, but you weren’t paying attention and you don’t care either. That’s fine to not care, but at least realize that the problem is yours and not the movie’s. You perceived the movie as a “disjointed mess” because you already didn’t like it, not because it was a disjointed mess. The passage of time was shown in various ways, through dialogue, makeup, hairstyles, the ages of Ennis’s daughters and various other ways. Just because Ang Lee didn’t show the passage of time as a cliched “montage” with cheezy music and a calandar with pages peeling off month by month by year by year doesn’t mean his way wasn’t effective for most of the audience, especially upon repeat viewings. [/QUOTE] Funny thing is: if Lee had included the goofy transitional markers you describe, there would have been even more complaints about “a slow pace.” You can’t win. Upon multiple viewings, I keep finding things I hadn’t noticed before: nuances, details, gestures, looks, subtleties, hints, implications, and strong performances by actors who had very few lines or scenes. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/142 "2006-08-07T09:27:59Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Still, the OP clearly missed the divorce-granted scene, which was a pretty clear indication that in the dinner scene that other guy was her new husband and Ennis was a guest (invited because of the daughters). [/quote] I didn’t miss it. I knew they were divorced. I still wondered what the hell her boss was doing there. > [@](#): > > You perceived the movie as a “disjointed mess” because you already didn’t like it Other way round. I didn’t like it because I perceived it as a disjointed mess. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/143 "2006-08-07T09:29:48Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] Did Ennis knew he was gay when he got married? [/quote] He knew he liked fucking Jack. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/144 "2006-08-07T09:50:59Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I didn’t miss it. I knew they were divorced. I still wondered what the hell her boss was doing there. [/QUOTE] Ah, I see. You’re the kind of person who likes every little thing spelled out in big, colorful, easy-to-read letters. I’m sorry **Brokeback Mountain** didn’t cater to your desire for a 4-hour movie with tons of dialogue, lots of narration, plenty of voice-overs telling you exactly what you’re seeing, broken 4th walls just in case you missed something, subtitles in case all that talking goes in one ear and out the other, and someone sitting there beside you to answer questions and make sure you understood every little thing. And the peeling calandar pages too. [QUOTE=Priceguy] Other way round. I didn’t like it because I perceived it as a disjointed mess. [/QUOTE] And because the lead characters were cheating on their wives, right? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/145 "2006-08-07T09:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Ah, I see. You’re the kind of person who likes every little thing spelled out in big, colorful, easy-to-read letters. I’m sorry **Brokeback Mountain** didn’t cater to your desire for a 4-hour movie with tons of dialogue, lots of narration, plenty of voice-overs telling you exactly what you’re seeing, broken 4th walls just in case you missed something, subtitles in case all that talking goes in one ear and out the other, and someone sitting there beside you to answer questions and make sure you understood every little thing. And the peeling calandar pages too. [/quote] Seriously, what _is_ it with the insults and snide remarks? ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/146 "2006-08-07T10:14:33Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Seriously, what _is_ it with the insults and snide remarks? [/QUOTE] I get impatient with people who blame movies for faults that lie within themselves, and have nothing to do with the movie in question. Millions of people had no problems at all with Brokeback’s pace or methods of showing the passage of time. You expect the movie to point out to you in big flashy letters or loud, stilted dialogue that Alma is now married to her boss when he shows up in a Thanksgiving dinner scene AFTER you already saw a scene that showed Alma and Ennis getting a divorce. I mean really…what? Boss is nice to Alma Alma and Ennis get a divorce Boss in sitting at the head of the table and carving the Thanksgiving turkey. Ennis is not carving the turkey, nor is he sitting at the head of the table. Alma is pregnant What the heck would you have wanted the movie to tell you flat out and how would you have wanted the movie to tell you, to let you know that Alma went and married her boss after she and Ennis got divorced? I’d really like to know. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/147 "2006-08-07T10:21:28Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] I get impatient with people who blame movies for faults that lie within themselves, and have nothing to do with the movie in question. Millions of people had no problems at all with Brokeback’s pace or methods of showing the passage of time. [/quote] Good for them. I did. How is this offensive to you? > [@](#): > > Boss is nice to Alma > > Alma and Ennis get a divorce > > Boss in sitting at the head of the table and carving the Thanksgiving turkey. > > Ennis is not carving the turkey, nor is he sitting at the head of the table. I guess I missed some American cultural references. I assume from what you’re saying that sitting at the head of the table and carving the turkey is traditionally done by the husband/father/man of the house? > [@](#): > > What the heck would you have wanted the movie to tell you flat out and how would you have wanted the movie to tell you, to let you know that Alma went and married her boss after she and Ennis got divorced? I’d really like to know. Alma could have told Ennis. We could have seen it happen. They could have shown some kind of contact between Alma and the boss that showed they were in a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/148 "2006-08-07T10:29:50Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I assume from what you’re saying that sitting at the head of the table and carving the turkey is traditionally done by the husband/father/man of the house? [/QUOTE] Hmm. This also brings new meaning to the Thanksgiving scene at the Twist house. I assumed Jack’s father-in-law was just dissing Jack’s carving skills when, in fact, it was all about a fight for the position of alpha male. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/149 "2006-08-07T10:32:14Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Good for them. I did. How is this offensive to you? [/QUOTE] It’s not offensive to me, but it does make me roll my eyes. Basically you wanted a very different movie…longer, with more dialogue and explanations, and one where the lead characters didn’t cheat on their wives. [QUOTE=Priceguy] I guess I missed some American cultural references. I assume from what you’re saying that sitting at the head of the table and carving the turkey is traditionally done by the husband/father/man of the house? [/QUOTE] I didn’t know where you’re from, and I shouldn’t have taken it for granted that you were and would know, but yes, it is a cultural reference in America that the head of the household sit at the head of the table, and the head of the household carve the Thanksgiving turkey. Now I understand more why that scene was confusing to you. Note that Jack was sitting at the head of the table at his house, but his father-in-law insisted in carving the turkey. That was a very specific indication that the FIL didn’t respect Jack and Jack was a non-entity to his FIL. Also note that after Jack speaks his mind regarding the turning the television off and on issue, Jack takes over the carving duties. That was a very specific and powerful indication that Jack was becoming stronger. Upon preview, I see that you got that. [QUOTE=Priceguy] Alma could have told Ennis. We could have seen it happen. They could have shown some kind of contact between Alma and the boss that showed they were in a relationship. [/QUOTE] I understand, but all these little things would add more time to the movie. I personally don’t think these extra informational tidbits were necessary. Whatever couldn’t be gleaned upon the first viewing would be more than apparant the 2nd viewing. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/150 "2006-08-07T10:38:18Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Also note that after Jack speaks his mind regarding the turning the television off and on issue, Jack takes over the carving duties. **That was a very specific and powerful indication that Jack was becoming stronger.** [/QUOTE] Well, that and calling the FIL a “miserable son of a bitch” and demanding he sit down. That’s much more powerful than carving a turkey, but it did mean something and added even more to the scene when Jack took over the carving duties. You’re right, in the Twist household, it was all about the Alpha male. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/151 "2006-08-07T10:57:34Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] You’re right, in the Twist household, it was all about the Alpha male. [/QUOTE] Which is yet another indicator of how hard life was for a gay man in 1960s America. Roles are clearly defined. It was a man’s world and manly men act like men. FIL was subtly calling him a pansy. Any man with true respect for another man would never assume to call the shots in his house. Since he perceived him as less of a man, he inserted himself into the role of Head Guy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/152 "2006-08-07T14:06:06Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] He knew he liked fucking Jack. [/QUOTE] He wouldn’t be the first guy to have sex with another guy while trying to convince himself he wasn’t really “queer” or believe that marrying a woman would make those feelings go away. Ennis was in some pretty severe denial, especially early on. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/153 "2006-08-07T14:34:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] He wouldn’t be the first guy to have sex with another guy while trying to convince himself he wasn’t really “queer” or believe that marrying a woman would make those feelings go away. Ennis was in some pretty severe denial, especially early on. [/QUOTE] Of course he was. I’ve never said I don’t understand him, just that he acted like an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/154 "2006-08-07T14:49:26Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Of course he was. I’ve never said I don’t understand him, just that he acted like an asshole. [/QUOTE] I agree, he often did, but he wasn’t _just_ an asshole and the audience was not supposed to sympathize with him when he acted like one. The story is a rumination on how homophobia can drive basically decent people to _behave_ like assholes out of fear. Ennis ultimately learning to accept himself and to _not_ let his fear and self-loathing hurt other people (finally showing some affection to his daughter and agreeing to go to her wedding, displaying the shirts and the postcard without shame) is the denouement of his story arc and the real emotional payoff. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/155 "2006-08-07T15:02:24Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Of course he was. I’ve never said I don’t understand him, just that he acted like an asshole. [/QUOTE] See, that’s what I don’t understand. I can name dozens…probably _hundreds_ of characters who acted like assholes. Do you dislike every movie that has a less-than-perfect character? You aren’t choosing your best friend here…you’re watching a movie. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/156 "2006-08-07T15:06:12Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] See, that’s what I don’t understand. I can name dozens…probably _hundreds_ of characters who acted like assholes. Do you dislike every movie that has a less-than-perfect character? [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, but I’ve already answered this question so many times in this thread. I’m not going to do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/157 "2006-08-07T15:15:38Z")
Well, all I can do is suggest that you watch the film again with some of many observations from this thread in mind. So far, the majority of your responses have to do with the character and not the movie. There are lots of reasons to like it and at least make it worthy of a second look. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/158 "2006-08-07T16:12:15Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I’m sorry, but I’ve already answered this question so many times in this thread. I’m not going to do it again. [/QUOTE] I haven’t really weighed in on your opinion of the movie, or on the debate over whether or not i agree with you. But i just went back through every one of your posts in this thread and, with all due respect, it seems to me as if you _haven’t_ actually answered this question. I may have missed it, but if i did i would appreciate it if you would point out the relevant post to me. Now, it’s true that you say things like: > [@Priceguy](#): > > I didn’t expect that, but if I’m going to care about their love story, feel sorry for them and so forth, I can’t think they’re assholes. So you can only fuck a couple of times a year? Oh, poor babies. Maybe if you weren’t cheating assholes I would care about that. and other comments to the effect that you can’t care about their story if you don’t like them. Fair enough. But i can’t find any place where you’ve answered the question of how you deal with unlikeable characters in other movies, how you approach this issue in a broad, general sense. I mean, let’s take the archetypal “great movie,” _Citizen Kane_. One could argue that, for a fair portion of the movie, Charles Foster Kane was an eminently unlikeable character who engaged in immoral and unethical behaviour. Does that change your opinion of the film? And **Trunk** pointed out that some of the key characters in _Pulp Fiction_ kill people for a living. Does this negate any value in the movie for you? What about _Goodfellas_, which focuses on characters who steal, run drugs, and kill people in the course of their everyday business? Or _Ocean’s Eleven_, which has as its central (and virtually its only) narrative a robbery plan? Again, if i’ve missed the place where you offered an explanation of this issue, i apologise, but i truly couldn’t find anything that really addresses **Kalhoun** ’s question. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/159 "2006-08-07T20:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] I haven’t really weighed in on your opinion of the movie, or on the debate over whether or not i agree with you. But i just went back through every one of your posts in this thread and, with all due respect, it seems to me as if you _haven’t_ actually answered this question. I may have missed it, but if i did i would appreciate it if you would point out the relevant post to me. [/quote] Posts 20, 22, 35 and 98. > [@](#): > > But i can’t find any place where you’ve answered the question of how you deal with unlikeable characters in other movies, how you approach this issue in a broad, general sense. OK, let’s make this clear once and for all. I feel that in order to appreciate a story of troubled love, like _Brokeback Mountain_, I have to find the characters sympathetic. In order to care about the plights of Ennis and Jack, I have to feel sorry for them. I have to feel that they deserve something better. All those other movies people keep listing are not similar stories to _Brokeback Mountain_ and do not hinge on me actually liking the characters. And, consequently, I didn’t feel very sorry for Marsellus Wallace when he got raped, nor for Vincent Vega when he was killed. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003/160 "2006-08-07T20:37:03Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] OK, let’s make this clear once and for all. I feel that in order to appreciate a story of troubled love, like _Brokeback Mountain_, I have to find the characters sympathetic. In order to care about the plights of Ennis and Jack, I have to feel sorry for them. I have to feel that they deserve something better. [/QUOTE] Seems like a valid viewpoint. I don’t think the movie would have worked as well with a sympathetic cutsey Tom Hanks & Meg Ryan feel-goodishness to it though. Have you checked out [Big Eden](http://www.bigeden.com/)? I have a feeling this would more along the lines of what you’d like, but it doesn’t quite have the big budget production value feel to it that BBM has. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-didnt-like-brokeback-mountain/367003.md?page=9)