# Am I the only one who prefers BC and AD to CE and BCE? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657 "2009-05-26T07:39:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/201 "2009-05-31T18:23:26Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Has anyone claimed that everyone using BC/AD is acknowledging that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah? Read the thread. It includes numerous comments like [“Aside from the obvious and understandable desire for Jews and other non-Christians to want to avoid calling Jesus “Christ” (i.e. ‘Messiah’)…”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11178177&postcount=7), ["Why is it so important for you that non-Christians call your Jesus ‘Messiah’ and ‘Lord?’](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11181852&postcount=72)" and [“This is just Christian offenderati getting upset because somebody else doesn’t want to recognize their deity as ‘Messiah’ or ‘Lord.’”](This is just Christian offenderati getting upset because somebody else doesn’t want to recognize their deity as “Messiah” or “Lord.”) > [@](#): > > Huh? If you understand why some Jews (and others) are uncomfortable using BC/AD, what is it that makes them uncomfortable about it if it isn’t that they interpret is as acknowledging Jesus as the Christ? You tell me. Discomfort can come from any number of causes – a strong distaste for Christianity, perhaps, or a belief that society gives too much prominence to Christianity. And that’s just off the top of my head. Do you seriously think that “acknoweldging Jesus as the Christ” is the only possible thing that could make them uncomfortable about this notation? One can’t simply declare this to be true as a atter of fiat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/202 "2009-05-31T20:46:33Z")
Yes, I think that calling a false Messiah “Christ” or “Lord” is quite enough, all by itself, to make plenty of people uncomfortable using that language. It’s not for you to tell them what they have to feel comfortable with, and not for nothing, but even a strong distaste for Christianity is a perfectly reasonable and justifiable reason not to use Christian devotional language – not that it has to be justified at all. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/203 "2009-06-01T08:38:41Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Read the thread. It includes numerous comments like [“Aside from the obvious and understandable desire for Jews and other non-Christians to want to avoid calling Jesus “Christ” (i.e. ‘Messiah’)…”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11178177&postcount=7), ["Why is it so important for you that non-Christians call your Jesus ‘Messiah’ and ‘Lord?’](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11181852&postcount=72)" and [“This is just Christian offenderati getting upset because somebody else doesn’t want to recognize their deity as ‘Messiah’ or ‘Lord.’”](This is just Christian offenderati getting upset because somebody else doesn’t want to recognize their deity as “Messiah” or “Lord.”) Again, those aren’t claims that everyone who is using BC/AD is doing so to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah. > [@JThunder](#): > > Do you seriously think that “acknoweldging Jesus as the Christ” is the only possible thing that could make them uncomfortable about this notation? This only one? No. But it does seem to be the root of the desire for different nomenclature. I’m not seeing too many claims that they are doing it for your stated reasons. And as Dio says, so what? Those are perfectly good reasons to prefer more neutral terms. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/204 "2009-06-01T14:18:59Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Again, those aren’t claims that everyone who is using BC/AD is doing so to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah. They most certainly are. The very heart of those claims is that using the term “Before Christ” is the same as calling him the Messiah. > [@](#): > > This only one? No. But it does seem to be the root of the desire for different nomenclature. Certainly. Remember though, you specifically asked “If you understand why some Jews (and others) are uncomfortable using BC/AD, what is it that makes them uncomfortable about it if it isn’t that they interpret is as acknowledging Jesus as the Christ?” I’m pointing out that there could be any number of other reasons. That’s why I understand their distaste, even though I think that **Dio** ’s particular argument is rather absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/205 "2009-06-01T14:56:08Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > They most certainly are. The very heart of those claims is that using the term “Before Christ” is the same as calling him the Messiah. This is an exceedingly dishonest summary of Dio’s argument. Dio’s claim is that when **Dio** (and some Jews, and some other people) uses the term “before Christ,” he feels like _he_ is paying deference to the Christian view that Jesus is the Messiah and that thus he would prefer not to use the term, and who are you to tell him that he should feel differently? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/206 "2009-06-01T15:24:46Z")
Nonsense. [**Diogenes** specifically said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11182800&postcount=105), "There is no attempt to change anything. It IS devotional language. " If anything, he went far beyond merely saying that it’s an acknowledgement of Jesus as Messiah. He went so far as to call it “devotional language,” for pity’s sake. He even goes on to say, "The only people getting offended are those who can’t stand it if someone else doesn’t want to call Jesus their Messiah. " … the clear implication being that people who take umbrage are this change of nomenclature are those who insist that every should describe Jesus as the Messiah. This goes far beyond merely saying that one simply prefers not to use the term. > [@](#): > > …and who are you to tell him that he should feel differently? Y’know, if I were feeling snippy, I would paraphrase your words and describe that as “an exceedingly dishonest summary of my argument.” I won’t though; rather, I’ll simply point out AGAIN that I said no such thing. I did NOT say that **Dio** has no business feeling that The BCE/CE convention is preferable. I simply think that it’s absurd to equate the use of BC/AD with an acknowledgement (whether implicit or explicit) that Jesus is the Messiah. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/207 "2009-06-01T15:35:26Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Nonsense. [**Diogenes** specifically said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11182800&postcount=105), > > "There is no attempt to change anything. It IS devotional language. " > > If anything, he went far beyond merely saying that it’s an acknowledgement of Jesus as Messiah. He went so far as to call it “devotional language,” for pity’s sake. It _is_ literally devotional language, which, when Dio is speaking, he understands its literal devotional meaning. He has repeatedly acknowledged that other people may feel differently about it, and ignore its literal meaning. > [@](#): > > He even goes on to say, > > "The only people getting offended are those who can’t stand it if someone else doesn’t want to call Jesus their Messiah. " > > … the clear implication being that people who take umbrage are this change of nomenclature are those who insist that every should describe Jesus as the Messiah. This goes far beyond merely saying that one simply prefers not to use the term. This is clearly an opinion/speculation that Dio is expressing, but one that I largely agree with. I suspect that those expressing extreme anger at the use of “B.C.E.” really are upset that Dio is intentionally choosing to avoid a term that acknowledges the divinity of Jesus. In the same way that I suspect that people who express extreme anger and disgust at rap music really are racist and in the same way that I suspect that people who are extreme homophobes are at heart unsure about their own heterosexuality. > [@](#): > > I did NOT say that **Dio** has no business feeling that The BCE/CE convention is preferable. I simply think that it’s absurd to equate the use of BC/AD with an acknowledgement (whether implicit or explicit) that Jesus is the Messiah. Dio is not saying that he considers _everyone else’s_ use of “B.C.” to be an acknowledgment of Jesus’s divinity. He is saying that if he were himself to use the term then he would consider that he is himself acknowledging Jesus’s divinity, because that’s what the term literally means. Avoiding a term because you disagree with its literal meaning is not absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/208 "2009-06-01T15:43:58Z")
It is _unquestionably_ devotional language to call Jesus, “Lord.” It certainly _feels_ devotional to call him “Messiah,” and for many people, their own religious feelings do not permit any “proper name” rationalization for it. The bottom line is that everybody should be left alone to whatever they feel comfortable with without either being offended by other uses, or insulting those who use them. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/209 "2009-06-01T17:09:46Z")
**ascenray** , you are bending over backwards to explain away this embarassment. If **Dio** had simply said that he does not personally prefer to use the terms “BC” or “AD,” I doubt that many would disagree with him. When somebody insists that “The only people getting offended are those who can’t stand it if someone else doesn’t want to call Jesus their Messiah” --even going so far as to insist that one of these terms is “unquestionably devotional language,” then that goes far, far beyond a mere expression of personal preference. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/210 "2009-06-01T17:20:22Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > If **Dio** had simply said that he does not personally prefer to use the terms “BC” or “AD,” I doubt that many would disagree with him. That’s exactly what he said early in the thread. And then he got piled on by the offenderati. > [@](#): > > When somebody insists that “The only people getting offended are those who can’t stand it if someone else doesn’t want to call Jesus their Messiah” That’s clearly an opinion/impression and not a statement of fact, and it’s one that I generally agree with. If you’re actually _offended_ by the use of “B.C.E.” then either you’re upset that Dio is refusing to pay homage to Jesus or you’ve got some other baggage. > [@](#): > > –even going so far as to insist that one of these terms is “unquestionably devotional language,” then that goes far, far beyond a mere expression of personal preference. No. First, it’s literally true. The terms _Christ_ and _anno Domini_ are unquestionably devotional. They have always been. That is their literal intent. Second, however, saying that it’s “unquestionably devotional” is _not_ the same thing as saying that “Whenever anyone anywhere uses the term _anno domini_ he or she is consciously offering his or her devotion to Jesus.” You’re pushing a logical interpretation of the literal meaning of the word to a clearly unintended assertion about the state of mind of everyone in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/211 "2009-06-01T17:46:30Z")
This whole issue reminds me of the stupidity that was “freedom fries”. In both cases (year terminology and french fries naming) [ul] [li]There were people who, for their own personal reasons, did not like using a term that has been used widely by a lot of people for a long time[/li][li]They changed the term, picking an ill-conceived new term[/li][li]Did not force anyone else to change the way they say it[/li][/ul] And yet, “freedom fries” was ridiculed, justly, but CE/BCE is not. Yes, these two cases have some differences, but the core of the issue is the same. Did anyone call the people who laughed at “freedom fries” the _offenderati_? Hey, no one was forcing anyone to call them freedom fries, why was the term objected to? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/212 "2009-06-01T17:47:46Z")
It is disingenuous to focus so much on the Domini/Christ issue in the terms AD/BC. I would bet (and maybe an IMHO poll can help resolve this) that roughly the same set of people who prefer not to use AD/BC would also prefer not to use AJ/BJ, that is, After Jesus/Before Jesus. So, IMHO, this is not about “devotional language”, but about wanting to avoid the connection to Jesus every time they say the date. Which is why, for these people, keeping the same numbering system is stupid because the connection to Jesus is still there, whether you say AD/BC or CE/BCE. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/213 "2009-06-01T18:28:12Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > **ascenray** , you are bending over backwards to explain away this embarassment. If **Dio** had simply said that he does not personally prefer to use the terms “BC” or “AD,” I doubt that many would disagree with him. When somebody insists that “The only people getting offended are those who can’t stand it if someone else doesn’t want to call Jesus their Messiah” --even going so far as to insist that one of these terms is “unquestionably devotional language,” then that goes far, far beyond a mere expression of personal preference. Why ARE you offended, then? My real point, by the way, regardless of how you want to take my attributed motivation, was that the only side taking any offense at all, or trying to dictate what other people should say is those who don’t like “BCE.” The BC/AD people are the ones trying to impose a universal standard, not those who personally prefer other language. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/214 "2009-06-01T18:37:11Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > This whole issue reminds me of the stupidity that was “freedom fries”. > > In both cases (year terminology and french fries naming) > [ul] > [li]There were people who, for their own personal reasons, did not like using a term that has been used widely by a lot of people for a long time[/li][li]They changed the term, picking an ill-conceived new term[/li][li]Did not force anyone else to change the way they say it[/li][/ul] > > And yet, “freedom fries” was ridiculed, justly, but CE/BCE is not. Yes, these two cases have some differences, but the core of the issue is the same. > > Did anyone call the people who laughed at “freedom fries” the _offenderati_? Hey, no one was forcing anyone to call them freedom fries, why was the term objected to? This is an inapt analogy in numerous ways. “freedom fries” was a grandstanding political stunt specifically intended to be an expression of _hostility_ towards the word being replaced. “BCE” has never been any of those things. There were also no religious problems with anybody saying “French fries.” In short, “freedom fries” was actually, legitimately stupid in a way that “common era” never has been. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/215 "2009-06-02T03:20:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why ARE you offended, then? I’m not, and I never said that I was. Quite the contrary; I explicitly said that I was NOT arguing for or against the use of BC/AD. What I am saying is that your particular argument is daft. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/216 "2009-06-02T03:24:24Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That’s exactly what he said early in the thread. And then he got piled on by the offenderati. That’s because he did a great deal more than express it as a mere personal preference… as evidenced by the quotes that I provided. > [@](#): > > If you’re actually _offended_ by the use of “B.C.E.” then either you’re upset that Dio is refusing to pay homage to Jesus or you’ve got some other baggage. See post above. I’m not expressing any outrage at the use of “B.C.E.” I have neither endorsed nor criticized this term. That doesn’t mean that I can’t point out the absurdity of insisting that the word “Christ” can only be properly used as a title, not a name. Nor should it prevent me from thinking that various other comments made by **Diogenes** are simply wrong-headed. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/217 "2009-06-02T10:31:41Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > They most certainly are. The very heart of those claims is that using the term “Before Christ” is the same as calling him the Messiah. But that doesn’t mean that **everyone** who is using BC/AD is doing so in acknowledgment that Jesus is the Messiah. No one believes this. No one claimed this. > [@JThunder](#): > > Nonsense. [**Diogenes** specifically said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11182800&postcount=105), > > "There is no attempt to change anything. It IS devotional language. " > > If anything, he went far beyond merely saying that it’s an acknowledgement of Jesus as Messiah. He went so far as to call it “devotional language,” for pity’s sake. It is devotional language. I don’t see how there can be any argument with that. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/218 "2009-06-02T12:52:35Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > But that doesn’t mean that **everyone** who is using BC/AD is doing so in acknowledgment that Jesus is the Messiah. No one believes this. No one claimed this. If you mean that it’s a deliberate acknowledgement of his messiahship, then of course nobody is making that claim. However, when somebody argues against the use of “BC” by saying “[it’s inappropriate to expect non-Christians to call Jesus their Messiah](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11181777&postcount=66),” for example, then they are indeed saying that the use of this term is an _implicit_ acknowledgement of his messianic status. There are no two ways about it. Again, I am not arguing for or against the use of BC or AD. I simply think that that particular line of argumentation is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657/219 "2009-06-02T12:54:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > My real point, by the way, regardless of how you want to take my attributed motivation, was that the only side taking any offense at all, or trying to dictate what other people should say is those who don’t like “BCE.” So says the fella who denounces the term “BC” by saying “it’s inappropriate to expect non-Christians to call Jesus their Messiah.” I happen to agree that one can’t expect non-Christians to do so, but the mere use of the term “BC” amounts to no such thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-prefers-bc-and-ad-to-ce-and-bce/497657.md?page=10)