# Am I the only one who's not !OUTRAGED! over the death of Cecil the lion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 29, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506 "2015-07-29T19:45:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/121 "2015-07-31T16:29:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It did not. According to the [Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority,](http://www.zimparks.org/index.php/mc/214-press-statement-on-the-illegal-hunt-of-a-collared-lion-at-antoinette-farm-in-gwayi-conservancy-hwange-district-on-1-july-2015-by-bushman-safaris-professional-hunter-theo-bronkhorst) the hunt was illegal for several reasons, including the fact that the landowner did not have a permit to take lions on his land. While it’s possible that the hunters misled him about the fact that Cecil had been lured out of a protected area, if he were at all concerned about the legality of the hunt he should have at least asked to verify that the permits were in order. At the very least he was criminally negligent. Blindly trusting that the professional hunters had made all legal arrangements without verifying would incredibly stupid, even giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he wasn’t in connivance with them. It appears that the professional hunter and the landowner conspired to take the dentist’s money under false pretenses. It appears that the professional hunter and the landowner did not obtain the usual state-required documents for the average lion hunt. It’s possible that the professional hunter and the landowner produced fake documents to fool anyone who challenged the legality of the lion hunt. It’s possible that the dentist was not aware of the actions of the professional hunter or the land owner. There is no outstanding warrant for the dentist in either country. There may be a warrant in the future. The U.S. has no reason to detain the dentist. No warrant. No extradition request. That doesn’t stop the bloodthirsty, animal-rights zealots from demanding the dentist’s death, injury, maiming, hanging, dismemberment, illegal detention, and illegal extradition because facts simply do not matter. Hunters and dentists are guilty until proven innocent. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/122 "2015-07-31T16:37:13Z")
So you’re not signing the petition? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/123 "2015-07-31T16:45:51Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > So you’re not signing the petition? ☹ Which petition? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/124 "2015-07-31T16:47:00Z")
No U.S. citizen will ever be extradited to Zimbabwe. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/125 "2015-07-31T16:53:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > There is no outstanding warrant for the dentist in either country. There may be a warrant in the future. The U.S. has no reason to detain the dentist. No warrant. No extradition request. According to the link I provided earlier, there is an extradition request from Zimbabwe and our own Fish and Wildlife Service would like to speak with him. > [@](#): > > The Department of Justice declined to comment on the extradition request but confirmed that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service was investigating the circumstances of the lion’s death. > > “That investigation will take us wherever the facts lead. At this point in time, however, multiple efforts to contact Dr. Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful,” said Edward Grace, the Fish and Wildlife Service’s deputy chief of law enforcement. > > “We ask that Dr. Palmer or his representative contact us immediately.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/126 "2015-07-31T17:10:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It appears that the professional hunter and the landowner conspired to take the dentist’s money under false pretenses. It appears that the professional hunter and the landowner did not obtain the usual state-required documents for the average lion hunt. It’s possible that the professional hunter and the landowner produced fake documents to fool anyone who challenged the legality of the lion hunt. It’s possible that the dentist was not aware of the actions of the professional hunter or the land owner. What do you mean, “it appears”? How about producing a cite for the fact that they took his money under false pretenses, aside from the self-serving claims of the dentist himself? Do you know that he ever asked to see any permits? It’s very unlikely that Palmer was so absurdly naive as you make him out to be or unaware of the actions of the hunters. He had been hunting in Africa several times before, and was a member of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association (a membership that has now been suspended due to his being in violation of the ethics of the Association). He had to know he was close to a national park, and that the lion had been baited in. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t stop the bloodthirsty, animal-rights zealots from demanding the dentist’s death, injury, maiming, hanging, dismemberment, illegal detention, and illegal extradition because facts simply do not matter. Hunters and dentists are guilty until proven innocent. :rolleyes: Bloodthirsty animal rights zealots like Newt Gingrich, for example, who called for [the entire team including the dentist to go to jail.](http://twitchy.com/2015/07/28/animal-lover-newt-gingrich-wants-entire-team-that-killed-cecil-the-lion-jailed/) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/127 "2015-07-31T17:11:45Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > According to the link I provided earlier, there is an extradition request from Zimbabwe and our own Fish and Wildlife Service would like to speak with him. Please fight my ignorance: I am not impressed with Palmer’s 'leet hunting skillz as described these last few days on the interwebz, but what jurisdiction does the U.S. F & W Service have in this case? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/128 "2015-07-31T17:20:06Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > According to the link I provided earlier, there is an extradition request from Zimbabwe and our own Fish and Wildlife Service would like to speak with him. Fish and Wildlife want to talk to the dentist. That’s not a warrant for his arrest or detention. The dentist is in hiding because the blood-thirsty, animal-rights zealots are repeatedly threatening to murder him. Any extradition request issued by Zimbabwe would have to be submitted to the U.S. State Dept for consideration. And the U.S. State Dept isn’t talking. Has an official of the Zimbabwe national government stated that they have officially requested extradition or are rumors reported by CNN-type “reporters” sufficient evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/129 "2015-07-31T17:21:18Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Please fight my ignorance: > > I am not impressed with Palmer’s 'leet hunting skillz as described these last few days on the interwebz, but what jurisdiction does the U.S. F & W Service have in this case? Evidently, he’s being investigated for possible violation of the [Lacey Act](http://www.fws.gov/international/laws-treaties-agreements/us-conservation-laws/lacey-act.html). > [@](#): > > Under the Lacey Act, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, **acquire,** or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are **taken, possessed** , transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or\*\* foreign commerce\*\* involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold \*\*in violation of \*\*State or **foreign law.** > > The law covers all fish and wildlife and their parts or products, plants protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) and those protected by State law. \*\*Commercial guiding and outfitting are considered to be a sale \*\*under the provisions of the Act. Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/130 "2015-07-31T17:33:32Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What do you mean, “it appears”? How about producing a cite for the fact that they took his money under false pretenses, aside from the self-serving claims of the dentist himself? Do you know that he ever asked to see any permits? It’s very unlikely that Palmer was so absurdly naive as you make him out to be or unaware of the actions of the hunters. He had been hunting in Africa several times before, and was a member of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association (a membership that has now been suspended due to his being in violation of the ethics of the Association). He had to know he was close to a national park, and that the lion had been baited in. You haven’t produced any evidence that the dentist was actually aware of any irregularities with the hunt, prior to the hunt. The dentist claims that he wasn’t aware the hunt might be illegal until he discovered the tracking device. It’s up to you, and Newt Gingrich, to prove him wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/131 "2015-07-31T17:54:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > the hunt was illegal for several reasons, That particular hunt was illegal. My point was that Zimbabwe allows many many other hunts that kill lions and other big game that are legal. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/132 "2015-07-31T17:55:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You haven’t produced any evidence that the dentist was actually aware of any irregularities with the hunt, prior to the hunt. The dentist claims that he wasn’t aware the hunt might be illegal until he discovered the tracking device. It’s up to you, and Newt Gingrich, to prove him wrong. This isn’t a court of law, it’s the internet. And as I said, the fact that the dentist was a very experienced hunter of big game in Africa makes it exceedingly unlikely that he was completely unaware of anything amiss with the hunt. Y’know, **doorhinge** , just because you’re conservative doesn’t mean you’re _required_ to make excuses for assholes.😉 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/133 "2015-07-31T18:02:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Evidently, he’s being investigated for possible violation of the Lacey Act. Thank you, **Colibri**. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/134 "2015-07-31T18:11:31Z")
“Legal” in Zimbabwe means you’ve bribed the right people. [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Zimbabwe) is the country complaining about the (rich) foreigner coming and - shock and horror - violating their laws. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/135 "2015-07-31T18:18:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “Legal” in Zimbabwe means you’ve bribed the right people. [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Zimbabwe) is the country complaining about the (rich) foreigner coming and - shock and horror - violating their laws. > > Regards, > Shodan So Americans should feel free to commit any illegal act in another country as long as that country is corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/136 "2015-07-31T18:25:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So Americans should feel free to commit any illegal act in another country as long as that country is corrupt. A country with widespread disregard for its own laws is entitled to less sympathy when others disregard the same laws. Zimbabwe going all Captain Renault by being shocked - Shocked! - that there is illegality going on in their country, is less a subject of sympathy and more a figure of fun. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/137 "2015-07-31T18:35:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A country with widespread disregard for its own laws is entitled to less sympathy when others disregard the same laws. > > Zimbabwe going all Captain Renault by being shocked - Shocked! - that there is illegality going on in their country, is less a subject of sympathy and more a figure of fun. > > Regards, > Shodan > [@Colibri](#): > > So Americans should feel free to commit any illegal act in another country as long as that country is corrupt. Care to actually respond to what I posted? As I said to **doorhinge** , you’re not actually required to make excuses for assholes.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/138 "2015-07-31T18:47:16Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Care to actually respond to what I posted? I did respond to what you posted. You tried a strawman; it didn’t work. > [@](#): > > As I said to **doorhinge** , you’re not actually required to make excuses for assholes.😉 That was a stupid line when you tried it the first time. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/139 "2015-07-31T18:50:18Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Please fight my ignorance: > > I am not impressed with Palmer’s 'leet hunting skillz as described these last few days on the interwebz, but what jurisdiction does the U.S. F & W Service have in this case? I had wondered that myself when I read the article. Thanks for fielding that one **Colibri**. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Fish and Wildlife want to talk to the dentist. That’s not a warrant for his arrest or detention. No warrant yet. If he continues to not respond, I seriously doubt they’re going to say “Oh well, on to the next file.” Government agencies are persistent that way. > [@doorhinge](#): > > The dentist is in hiding because the blood-thirsty, animal-rights zealots are repeatedly threatening to murder him. Without a doubt. And I in no way support any illegal actions against him or his properties. They can protest, picket, and boycott to their little hearts content, but any acts of violence or vandalism make them no better than him. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Any extradition request issued by Zimbabwe would have to be submitted to the U.S. State Dept for consideration. And the U.S. State Dept isn’t talking. Has an official of the Zimbabwe national government stated that they have officially requested extradition or are rumors reported by CNN-type “reporters” sufficient evidence? CNN reporting that there has been a request is a lot more credible than you saying Nuh-uh. So until my people in the State Department call me to say otherwise, I’m going to go with CNN and presume there has been a request. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506/140 "2015-07-31T19:02:06Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > No U.S. citizen will ever be extradited to Zimbabwe. That got me curious so I had to check. The U.S. does have an [extradition treaty with Zimbabwe](https://www.congress.gov/105/cdoc/tdoc33/CDOC-105tdoc33.pdf) (PDF) and it does seem to be an extraditable offense if that the potential penalty is longer than a year. The most obvious counter argument will be that the request is politically motivated. I’ll leave it to the lawyer types to wade through the whole document if they want to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-whos-not-outraged-over-the-death-of-cecil-the-lion/726506.md?page=8)