# Amanda Knox and Double Jeopardy
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 26, 2013, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993 "2013-03-26T10:55:50Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/1 "2013-03-26T10:55:50Z")
[Amanda Knox’s acquittal has been overturned by an Italian court](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/world/europe/amanda-knox-retrial-ruling.html?hp). If, as seems likely to happen, a request is made that she be extradited from the US to Italy for a retrial, would her (US) Constitutional right to not be subject to double jeopardy override any extradition treaties between the two countries?
I know that US laws and rights have no standing in Italy. My question, and implicit point, though, is whether US authorities and courts would facilitate what would be a violation of Knox’s Constitutional rights had things occurred in the US.
---
### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/2 "2013-03-26T11:13:50Z")
From what I can see is that the Italian Court of Cassation has set aside the Court of Appeals decision and remanded it back to that Court. I don’t think that violates Double Jeopardy.
---
### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/3 "2013-03-26T11:48:29Z")
According to the NYT article linked to above, "Italy’s highest court on Tuesday overturned a previous acquittal and ordered a new trial in the sensational case of Amanda Knox, . . . " (emphasis added)
Would not the “new trial” suggest that there is about to be double jeopardy?
---
### Author:  [@subspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/subspace)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/4 "2013-03-26T11:57:54Z")
I don’t think it has any bearing on her extradition. If the US government could only extradite people to countries that incorporate the Bill of Rights into their legal system, then it wouldn’t be able to extradite anyone anywhere. She hasn’t been indicted by a grand jury, and will not be tried by her peers, so those would be other reasons to refuse her extradition.
---
### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/5 "2013-03-26T12:01:26Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#):
>
> My question, and implicit point, though, is whether US authorities and courts would facilitate what would be a violation of Knox’s Constitutional rights had things occurred in the US.
> [@subspace](#):
>
> I don’t think it has any bearing on her extradition. If the US government could only extradite people to countries that incorporate the Bill of Rights into their legal system, then it wouldn’t be able to extradite anyone anywhere.
There’s a difference between _could_ be violated and _would_ be violated. If she had been indicted on a fresh murder charge, then extradition would not raise a constitutional issue.
---
### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/6 "2013-03-26T12:01:43Z")
Part of what motivated me to ask is the (admittedly stretched) similarity to those cases where my country, Canada, refuses to extradite anyone who may face the death penalty in the extraditing country. In other words, because that country’s possible actions are at odds with our laws and sensibilities, we refuse to comply with the request.
---
### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/7 "2013-03-26T12:03:30Z")
> [@Ludovic](#):
>
> There’s a difference between _could_ be violated and _would_ be violated. If she had been indicted on a fresh murder charge, then extradition would not raise a constitutional issue.
Are you saying there _is_ a constitutional issue?
---
### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/8 "2013-03-26T12:08:44Z")
I don’t know the facts of the extradition claim very well. I’m just saying that claiming that _if_ a particular extradition definitely _would_ be directly facilitating the violation of an American constitutional right, that is a different story than saying “well, how can we extradite anyone to any country because it’s possible that they’d also receive treatment that would run afoul of our constitution if it were incorporated there.”
---
### Author:  [@subspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/subspace)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/9 "2013-03-26T12:12:19Z")
> [@Ludovic](#):
>
> I don’t know the facts of the extradition claim very well. I’m just saying that claiming that _if_ a particular extradition definitely _would_ be directly facilitating the violation of an American constitutional right, that is a different story than saying “well, how can we extradite anyone to any country because it’s possible that they’d also receive treatment that would run afoul of our constitution if it were incorporated there.”
Would her extradition also \*\*definitely \*\*be a violation of her right to be tried for murder only after indictment by a grand jury?
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/10 "2013-03-26T12:34:14Z")
I’m surprised that the first appeal resulted in an acquittal instead of a demand for retrial, or simply declaring a mistrial.
To my reading, getting a new trial after acquittal is a violation of double jeopardy. The EU has double jeopardy protections, but allow new trials if there is a “fundamental defect” in the original case. Honestly, I figure that “the prosecutors did a horrible job” should not count as a defect. The text also includes the term “finally acquitted” which maybe Knox wasn’t, which might explain why the appeals decision was acquittal instead of mistrial. Maybe the appeals court can only give non-final acquittals.
[linky poo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy#European_Convention_on_Human_Rights)
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/11 "2013-03-26T13:57:54Z")
It’s difficult to draw precise parallels between Italian and American criminal procedure.
But if it helps, remember that Knox was first convicted at the trial court. If that happened here in the U.S., and an intermediate appellate court overturned her conviction – and perhaps even on grounds that forbid retrial, such as insufficiency of the evidence – a higher appellate court could reinstate the conviction, or even remand for a new trial – that is, overturn the guilty verdict because of errors at trial, but allow a new trial by not finding an insufficiency of the evidence.
So while the Italian system is different, and the use of “acquittal” doesn’t carry the same implications it does here, the general series of events could happen here: guilty at the trial court; conviction overturned and no retrial possible as an order from the intermediate appellate court; retrial ordered by the final appellate authority.
---
### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/12 "2013-03-26T14:39:09Z")
That was very helpful. Thank you.
---
### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/13 "2013-03-26T15:46:41Z")
FWIW, I’ve read on another board that Knox absolutely, positively does not have to go back to Italy to stand (re-)trial. Has it already been firmly established that the U.S. will not extradite Knox, or are some people just talking out of their rear ends.
---
### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/14 "2013-03-26T15:53:59Z")
I think that is correct, because of specifics in extradition norms and Italian law I don’t think they can actually force her to come and be tried. But Italian law allows for trial in absentia, so they will try her whether she shows up or not. If convicted, they then **absolutely can** ask that the United States extradite her.
It’s unclear if they will, though. I don’t think the double jeopardy argument would prevent her from being extradited, but there are other problems I’ve heard about in regard to how this case was handled that might. U.S. doesn’t require another country to exactly follow our legal principles, but if the court handling the extradition found some stuff it had serious problems with in how the Italian court handled the first trial or the retrial it could still refuse to extradite.
---
### Author:  [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/15 "2013-03-26T15:56:59Z")
> [@subspace](#):
>
> She hasn’t been indicted by a grand jury, and will not be tried by her peers, so those would be other reasons to refuse her extradition.
_Nitpic_ Where in the U.S. Bill of Rights does it say one has a right to be tried by ones peers?
---
### Author:  [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/16 "2013-03-26T16:19:40Z")
IANAL, but I believe that even in the US, if a trial is declared a mistrial, then the original trial effectively didn’t happen and the case can be tried again. This isn’t “double jeopardy”.
According to the [wikipedia article on DJ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy), regarding the EU,
> [@](#):
>
> Member states may, however, implement legislation which allows reopening of a case in the event that new evidence is found or if there was a fundamental defect in the previous proceedings
---
### Author:  [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/17 "2013-03-26T16:43:19Z")
My recollection is that if there is prosecutorial misconduct causing the mistrial in the US, then double jeopardy does attach.
---
### Author:  [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/18 "2013-03-26T17:01:24Z")
I think the double jeopardy claim would give the US authorities grounds to refuse extradition, but would not require them to do so.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/19 "2013-03-26T17:09:15Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#):
>
> I think the double jeopardy claim would give the US authorities grounds to refuse extradition, but would not require them to do so.
If this happened in the United States, do you believe it would constitute double jeopardy?
In what way is double jeopardy relevant to this case?
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993/20 "2013-03-26T17:12:02Z")
> [@subspace](#):
>
> She hasn’t been indicted by a grand jury, and will not be tried by her peers, so those would be other reasons to refuse her extradition.
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> _Nitpic_ Where in the U.S. Bill of Rights does it say one has a right to be tried by ones peers?
And where do we find a requirement of indictment by a grand jury before trial? Plenty of states don’t use grand juries.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-double-jeopardy/653993.md?page=2)