# Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent victims of a rush to judgment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474 "2009-10-12T01:39:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/181 "2010-03-05T00:56:14Z")
Is there a non-biased site that presents both sides fairly? I want to follow this case, I really do, but like getting into a movie that’s halfway over, it’s hard to put together what happened from the bit of information you get. Plus, apparently the tabloids are making stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/182 "2010-03-05T01:18:19Z")
[QUOTE=ABC News] Knox was badgered and hit in the head by police until she allowed that she had a vision that she was at the apartment when Kercher was murdered and that Lumumba was there too. She later signed a statement to that effect. [/QUOTE] I don’t have anything to add to the debate, but I’m really surprised that the above sentence appeared in a straight news story. Not even a “Knox claims…” or “According to Knox…”? The way it’s presented, it takes this to be a statement of fact, when in fact it’s a contentious point between the police and the defendant. To me, it signals that this is some shoddy journalism. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/183 "2010-03-05T19:34:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Found [this in the news today](http://abcnews.go.com/International/AmandaKnox/amanda-knox-judge-rules-killed-animosity/story?id=10007363). > > This is an interesting addition to this case. The judge somehow was able to glean a completely different set of circumstances and motive from the testimony given than that which the prosecution spent 15 months trying to prove, but in the end, in his opinion, she still did it. Hmm. [This](http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/04/amanda.knox.jurors/index.html?iref=allsearch)story says that the judge was explaining what the jurors believed, not what he believed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/184 "2010-03-05T20:56:07Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Hmm. [This](http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/04/amanda.knox.jurors/index.html?iref=allsearch)story says that the judge was explaining what the jurors believed, not what he believed. If you had been following along, you would remember that in Italy, the Corte d’Assise is composed of 2 judges and 6 laymen, with the judges presiding (similar to a US jury foreman). The 2 judges write the final jury report; the laymen have no input on it AFAIK. So in this case, it was in fact the judge(s) stating their reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/185 "2010-03-05T21:03:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If you had been following along, you would remember that in Italy, the Corte d’Assise is composed of 2 judges and 6 laymen, with the judges presiding (similar to a US jury foreman). Actually, I have some memory problems. I’m not sure that not remembering details from a three month old thread qualifies, however. Thanks for the snark, at any rate. It’s always nice to see that one’s offerings are taken in the best possible light. > [@](#): > > The 2 judges write the final jury report; the laymen have no input on it AFAIK. Nor do I. > [@](#): > > So in this case, it was in fact the judge(s) stating their reasoning. I’m just going by this sentence : > [@](#): > > The 427-page report, written by Judge Giancarlo Massei and Assistant Judge Beatrice Cristiani, explains the reasons behind jurors’ determination in December that Knox was guilty in the November 2007 stabbing death of exchange student Kercher while the two roomed together in Perugia, Italy. I suppose “jurors” could mean “judges.” It seems a bit of an awkward construction if that indeed is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/186 "2010-03-05T21:28:29Z")
Your welcome for the snark. No extra charge. 😃 I know it’s a different justice system, and I also have to remember that even tho it uses a lot of the same terms, the rules are different. The article you linked also has this: > [@](#): > > “The most plausible hypothesis is that Rudy decided by himself to enter Meredith’s room,” the report said. “The reaction and refusal of the girl must have been heard by Amanda and Raffaele, who actually were probably disturbed and intervened, given the unfolding of events. They backed Rudy, whom they allowed to enter the house” and ultimately became Kercher’s killers because of events that followed, **according to the judges**. So I think it’s fair to say that the article is not as well written as it should be for foreigners. It comes close to using “judges” and “jury” interchangeably, and tho judges sit on the jury, they are still above the laypeople in the Italian justice hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/187 "2010-03-06T00:24:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Is there a non-biased site that presents both sides fairly? I want to follow this case, I really do, but like getting into a movie that’s halfway over, it’s hard to put together what happened from the bit of information you get. Plus, apparently the tabloids are making stuff up. …I recommend this thread from the JREF Forums: [http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=161229](http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=161229) The thread is currently at 113 pages, so getting through it is a hard slog but well worth it. It takes a few pages to get going, and the last thirty or so pages meander a bit. But for the most part there is a genuine good faith effort to look at the actual evidence provided in court. Having followed that thread for the last couple of months I have made the following conclusions: - Amanda Knox was given a fair trial by the Italian justice system - Amanda Knox is guilty of the crimes she was accused of - In general the American media has been absolutely disgraceful in its portrayal of this case ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/188 "2010-03-06T19:01:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I recommend this thread from the JREF Forums: > > [http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=161229](http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=161229) > > The thread is currently at 113 pages, so getting through it is a hard slog but well worth it. It takes a few pages to get going, and the last thirty or so pages meander a bit. But for the most part there is a genuine good faith effort to look at the actual evidence provided in court. Having followed that thread for the last couple of months I have made the following conclusions: > > - Amanda Knox was given a fair trial by the Italian justice system > - Amanda Knox is guilty of the crimes she was accused of > - In general the American media has been absolutely disgraceful in its portrayal of this case It’s funny how people differ. I read the same thread. The only thing we would be able to agree on is that the American media did a poor job (though I suspect those opinions are formed from entirely different reasons). ---
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/189 "2010-03-06T21:24:54Z")
Just wanted to point out she got the extra year because a person she knew to be totally innocent spent 2-3 weeks in jail because of her lies. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/190 "2010-06-09T16:46:13Z")
[Story here](http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/mafia-informer-amanda-knox-guilty-brother-killer/story?id=10865516) > [@](#): > > Luciano Aviello, who is tied to the Italian Mafia and currently serving a 17 year prison sentence, told Knox’s lawyers in a video-taped prison interview in March that his brother Antonio showed up at his house in Perugia wearing a bloodstained jacket the night of Nov. 1, 2007, the night that Kercher was murdered. > > Aviello claims his brother told him that he broke into a house and killed a woman. > > Antonio Aviello then asked his brother to hide the bloody knife and the keys to the Perugia apartment where Kercher and Knox lived, he claimed in the deposition. > > “I hid everything under a little wall behind my house and covered it with soil and stones. I am happy to stand up in court and confirm all this and wrote to the court several times to tell them, but was never questioned,” Luciano Aviello said. Yep, you read that right: he claims to have written to the court several times to give them this information, but he was ignored. > [@](#): > > The inmate said he first wrote to the Perugian court in June 2009 while Knox and her ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were on trial. Aviello wrote two more letters to presiding Judge Giancarlo Massei in July and September 2009. > > Aviello was never looked at as a witness or called to testify, although prosecutors did have a homeless man testify and tracked down potential witnesses who were mentioned in press reports. Why hasn’t this been done? The exact location is given; how long could it take to drive out there and move a brick or two? > [@](#): > > Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini told ABC News that his office will look into the matter as soon as possible. > > “We must always verify what is presented to us,” Mignini said. Since when? Did they verify that they had the murder weapon? No, they just grabbed a handy knife and declared it to be the murder weapon. Did they verify that Knox was in the house when Kercher was killed? No. From where I sit, that statement that they have to verify everything is ridiculous. The cops verified very little, made up what they felt they needed to, and then smeared Knox and Sollecito in the media for more than a year and a half. I have no great hopes that this new information, even if accompanied by a confession from Aviello’s brother, will free these 2, but a little hope is better than no hope. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/191 "2010-06-09T16:47:26Z")
> [@ajb867](#): > > Just wanted to point out she got the extra year because a person she knew to be totally innocent spent 2-3 weeks in jail because of her lies. I wonder: if it’s proven that Aviello’s brother killed Kercher, will all those cops, prosecuting attorneys, judges, etc. all go to jail for a year for each 2-3 weeks that Knox has been incarcerated because of their lies? ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/192 "2010-06-09T20:30:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I wonder: if it’s proven that Aviello’s brother killed Kercher, will all those cops, prosecuting attorneys, judges, etc. all go to jail for a year for each 2-3 weeks that Knox has been incarcerated because of their lies? Did the judges lie? And they probably genuinely thought she was guilty - she knew the man was innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/193 "2010-06-09T20:32:28Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Did the judges lie? > > And they probably genuinely thought she was guilty - she knew the man was innocent. cite? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/194 "2010-06-10T04:03:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Did they verify that they had the murder weapon? No, they just grabbed a handy knife and declared it to be the murder weapon. > > Did they verify that Knox was in the house when Kercher was killed? No. > > From where I sit, that statement that they have to verify everything is ridiculous. The cops verified very little, made up what they felt they needed to, and then smeared Knox and Sollecito in the media for more than a year and a half. > > I have no great hopes that this new information, even if accompanied by a confession from Aviello’s brother, will free these 2, but a little hope is better than no hope. …if the evidence is as weak as you assert, why was Amanda found guilty? ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/195 "2010-06-10T10:29:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > cite? Why else would they want to put her in jail? Even if the evidence wasn’t up to scratch, (and it seems like it was) they wouldn’t just randomly throw her into jail. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/196 "2010-06-10T11:25:40Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Even if the evidence wasn’t up to scratch, (and it seems like it was) they wouldn’t just randomly throw her into jail. I have no opinion regarding the guilt or innocence of Knox and Sollecito, but there is a long history of various (hardly all) police and prosecutors getting an idea that a particular person must be guilt of a crime and moving heaven and earth to prove their belief at the expense of any effort to discover the actual culprit. The "why"s rarely make sense and that argument/question is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/197 "2010-06-10T14:21:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if the evidence is as weak as you assert, why was Amanda found guilty? Read thru the thread, check the cites and you’ll see that Italian justice isn’t the same as American justice, and IMO in this case is so tainted that there is no justice (yet). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/198 "2010-06-10T14:46:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Read thru the thread, check the cites and you’ll see that Italian justice isn’t the same as American justice, and IMO in this case is so tainted that there is no justice (yet). …read this thread. Read the other thread on the JREF that I cited before: every single page. Explain to me: if the evidence is as weak as you assert, why was Amanda found guilty? Is it possible that the evidence isn’t as weak as you claim? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/199 "2010-06-10T15:30:04Z")
I’ll bet the court and the prosecutors got lots of letters at that time. Sure, I have no problem with them going and digging up his wall, but I wonder if Aviello is going to ask for a reduction in his sentence before telling them exactly where the stuff is located, and then will be shocked to find that someone seems to have already moved the stuff, because it’s not there. I guess I wonder why Aviello’s statements have any credibility at all. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/200 "2010-06-10T15:40:07Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I guess I wonder why Aviello’s statements have any credibility at all. 😃 you don’t say. Face it, the Italian justice system is not that corrupt, especially not with cases like this. Your (generic your) darling American is as guilty as sin 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474.md?page=11)