# Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent victims of a rush to judgment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474 "2009-10-12T01:39:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/101 "2009-12-06T03:01:08Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > The example this has been compared to most in this thread is the case of the West Memphis Three, right here in the US. The problems that people have with the Italian justice system aren’t that it is completely unfair, but that the accused has fewer protections against a prosecutor determined to convict them. As far as visiting goes, it seems like a matter that only comes up in the incredibly rare event that one is falsely implicated in a serious crime, so it’s easy to roll the dice even if the result is far worse in the millions-to-one chance that you find yourself the target of an overzealous Italian prosecutor. That’s right. Forget the countries. In WM3, we had no motive other than suspicion, uncredited witnesses allowed to testify for the prosecution and speculations of the community that lead to a guilty verdict. Same thing with Amanda Knox and her _compagno._ Did anyone see the animation film the prosecution used in their closing in Italy? I’ve only heard that it was an animated chain of events which ended with a freeze frame on the dead body of Meredith Kercher’s bloody corpse. There’s something we WOULD NOT see in the US, but even in the case of the WM3, the prosecution kept nailing satanism in the whole picture without proof. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/102 "2009-12-06T03:14:06Z")
It’s heartwarming to see the US media restored to unquestioned impartiality and objectivity. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/103 "2009-12-06T04:07:22Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > thanks for completely missing my point. > > the relative merits of the US criminal justice system over the foreign system could not be any more irrelevant. it is what it is. americans voluntarily visit these countries and subject themselves to the vagaries of whatever criminal justice system these countries have. Ah, I see. Your point is that actual moral truth is defined exactly and only by the workings of the court system wherever you happen to be. If we all were to accept that notion, then we could end this thread right now. After all, she was convicted, and courts and juries are never wrong. I suppose OJ was really innocent, and the Goldmans should have to pay him back whatever money they got from as a result of the civil case. The relative merits of two legal systems are a side issue, though not totally irrelevant. The merit of this particular court, I thought, is the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/104 "2009-12-06T16:35:44Z")
> **[Foxy Knoxy 'a victim of anti-American trial' as campaigners urge Hillary...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1233539/Amanda-Knox-victim-anti-American-trial-campaigners-urge-Hillary-Clinton-launch-investigation.html)** > > The priest who counselled Amanda Knox during her trial said the American student knew she would be convicted of the murder of Meredith Kercher. From the Daily Mail of all places. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/105 "2009-12-06T17:36:36Z")
> [@Sam\_I\_Was](#): > > Hogwash. I would take the US system over one with a majority rules jury, not sequestered, that includes two members _not_ my peers any day. > > Oh, and I would like the concept of double jeopardy to exist, thank you very much. The news is reporting that the jury was unanimous on her guilt, and disagreed only as to her sentence. Not sure what the double jeopardy aspect of her case might have been. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/106 "2009-12-06T18:53:44Z")
In case anyone’s interested [here’s](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wfbcjita.txt) a link to the US Department of Justice’s World Factbook of Criminal Justice Systems page on Italy. It’s very long and has no table of contents. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/107 "2009-12-06T19:08:08Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > americans voluntarily visit these countries and subject themselves to the vagaries of whatever criminal justice system these countries have. I’m not seeing this in your previous post. It sounded like you were dismissing all objections to this case American provincialism. On the other hand I’m not sure what these comments have to do with the subject. Yes, she voluntarily visited the country. And? That has no bearing on the merits of this case. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I wouldn’t go waltzing into North Korea for precisely this reason. Or because the North Korean government wouldn’t allow you in. Whichever. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/108 "2009-12-06T19:15:22Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > In case anyone’s interested [here’s](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wfbcjita.txt) a link to the US Department of Justice’s World Factbook of Criminal Justice Systems page on Italy. It’s very long and has no table of contents. Interesting - I tried to find the Irish one, but there is no abstract. ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/109 "2009-12-06T21:14:39Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Yes, but apparently there are some here who think that extremely suspicious behavior like this (not to mention the handwritten confession where Amanda said she “had a vision” of being at the murder scene and hearing Meridith’s screams) To me this reads as a sign of a false confession. She’s trying to make the investigators happy by giving them the information they want (that she was there) but still refuses to inculpate herself in a crime she didn’t commit. The Marty Tankleff case is a similar example. He told police he blacked out and committed the murders. [QUOTE=MPB in Salt Lake] Yes, Amanda MAY be completely innocent of any wrongdoing in this savage murder, but if that is the case, she has done a masterful job of making herself appear to be about 116 kinds of bull-goose bughouse crazee, (not to mention icy and indifferent to her roomates death) which in a lot of peoples minds (including at least 5 Italian jury members) equals GUILTY. [/QUOTE] And the police first became interested in Michael Crowe based on how he behaved the morning his sister’s body was discovered. There were two people convicted here, though. What about Raffaele Sollecito? Why aren’t you concerned with his behavior? ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/110 "2009-12-06T22:09:19Z")
## Marty Tankloff didnt go shopping for dildos and crotchless panties in the hours after his parents murder, nor did he do handstands or cartwheels in the police station during a break in his questioning. Look, I dont know what really happened, and neither do you—I sure as hell know that Amanda Knox’s bizzare behavior following her friends death makes her look nucking futs, as well as callous and indifferent, which doubtless went a hell of long way in helping convict her. Acting in a manner that everyone else would view as wildly inappropriate dosent automatically make you guilty, but it can certainly make observers start to think that way. If you really feel so strongly that poor Amanda was an innocent little lamb, railroaded by Italian Justice, you can always send her parents some money, as I am sure they could use it… PS—I sincerely feel that Amanda Knox’s family are also victims of her actions, just as the Kercher family is ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/111 "2009-12-06T22:16:26Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Acting in a manner that everyone else would view as wildly inappropriate dosent automatically make you guilty, but it can certainly make observers start to think that way. Who gives a good damn about the appropriateness of her behavior? The question is whether or not she was involved in this murder. If the jury was swayed by reports about her shopping habits and MySpace pictures rather than the lack of physical evidence or a plausible motive, that’s their fault, not hers. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/112 "2009-12-06T22:20:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who gives a good damn about the appropriateness of her behavior? Apparently at least me and the 8 on the jury, as the last time I checked she is still in prison… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/113 "2009-12-06T22:44:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not seeing this in your previous post. It sounded like you were dismissing all objections to this case American provincialism. On the other hand I’m not sure what these comments have to do with the subject. Yes, she voluntarily visited the country. And? That has no bearing on the merits of this case. > Or because the North Korean government wouldn’t allow you in. Whichever. 😉 The North Korean government was allowing a lot of people in for a trip to a famous mountain. The resort is a jointly run enterprise between North and South Korea. One South Korean lady and one South Korean man found out the hard way that the North’s serious about their laws being obeyed in that area. The lady was shot and killed by a military guard and the man was arrested for insulting the North and its system of government. **Sam I Was** : Which US system? The US military does have a majority verdict rule. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_I\_Was](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Sam\_I\_Was](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_I_Was)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/114 "2009-12-06T22:58:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The news is reporting that the jury was unanimous on her guilt, and disagreed only as to her sentence. Not sure what the double jeopardy aspect of her case might have been. True, but that still leaves the composition of the jury itself, which as far as I know, wasn’t interviewed to ferret out any preexisting bias. The only reason I bring up double jeopardy is because had she been acquitted, the prosecution still had the option to appeal. I’m not sure that she would have been permitted to leave the country. In actuality, I see most of the faults in this case less in the procedure of the court, with rules already extremely unfavorable to her, than with the nature of the evidence itself. There are reports of police moving things around at the crime scene and handling objects without gloves. Initial examinations had Kercher’s throat slit with a shard of glass or a pen knife. The only forensic evidence that places Knox at the scene is a butcher knife, which the prosecution presented as the murder weapon. I have trouble coming up with a blade more dissimilar than that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/115 "2009-12-06T23:02:27Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Apparently at least me and the 8 on the jury, as the last time I checked she is still in prison… I believe we were discussing whether or not she’s guilty. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/116 "2009-12-06T23:09:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I believe we were discussing whether or not she’s guilty. She WAS found guilty, O Wise One… (And with that, I am done with this thread—Marley23 and the others can musturbate all over the minutia of this case as is their wont, but I have other important things to discuss, like exactly how awful of a person/musician/terrorist IS Cat Stevens) ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/117 "2009-12-06T23:35:08Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I always enjoy the presumption many Americans take that foreign courts are all marsupial, and that any time someone from this country is charged with a crime abroad they get railroaded, convicted on emotional evidence, or that the foreign judicial system is corrupt and/or unjust. It could be universal though. I’m Australian, we (or our media) do the same sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/118 "2009-12-06T23:40:48Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > (And with that, I am done with this thread—Marley23 and the others can musturbate all over the minutia of this case as is their wont And that’ll get you a formal warning for insults. Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_I\_Was](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Sam\_I\_Was](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_I_Was)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/119 "2009-12-06T23:43:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **Sam I Was** : Which US system? The US military does have a majority verdict rule. The US military system is quite a separate entity from the criminal justice system as it applies to civilians. I have more than a few problems with military courts as well. ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474/120 "2009-12-06T23:52:52Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Marty Tankloff didnt go shopping for dildos and crotchless panties in the hours after his parents murder, nor did he do handstands or cartwheels in the police station during a break in his questioning. Actually, I compared accounts of her behavior with Michael Crowe and her confession with Marty Tankloff. That aside, Knox didn’t go shopping for dildos or crotchless panties after Kerchner’s death. It is, however, interesting to see where your imagination runs and what you’d prefer to believe over the truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-are-innocent-victims-of-a-rush-to-judgment/513474.md?page=7)