# Amateur Grammar Authorities **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 13, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117 "2009-12-13T17:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/1 "2009-12-13T17:49:09Z")
Sometimes you learn from them, correct your long held practice and move on. That’s okay. It’s when they attempt to correct your grammar and you end up wasting time to verify their assertions, that it becomes a pain in the ass. [A case in point](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11882550&postcount=33). > [@Would tiger Woods Benefit From Intervention By Rev. Jackson?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-tiger-woods-benefit-from-intervention-by-rev-jackson/520902/33): > > Just for the record “Rev. Jackson” is an incorrect form of address. Reverend is a style, as in “The Reverend Jesse Jackson”. Calling him Reverend Jackson is like calling a judge Honorable Scalia or Honorable Bader Ginsburg. Now in all my nearly 60 years, addressing the minister or pastor as Reverend So and So is so common that it defies my belief that the practice is incorrect. It has been as common as addressing your family physician as Dr. So and So. Not as a debating tool, but rather to simply inform myself, I googled both _“the reverend billy graham”_ and _“reverend billy graham”_ to find that the former construction has been used twice as often as the latter. My sense is that **Silver Towers** is confused beteen a form of address and a title. You don’t address your pastor as follows, “The Reverend So and So, how are you this morning?” Neither do you address a supreme judge as follows, “The Honourable Scalia, how are you this morning?” But none of what I’ve said is worthy to present for argument. Just who or what is the ultimate authority on english grammer or proper language usage? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/2 "2009-12-13T17:51:29Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > But none of what I’ve said is worthy to present for argument. Just who or what is the ultimate authority on english grammer or proper language usage? We is!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/3 "2009-12-13T18:40:19Z")
I’m not an amateur grammar authority; given that one of my official job duties is editing and proof-reading, I am literally a professional grammar authority, though I am far from an infallible one. The fact that “Reverend Jackson” is used more often than “The Reverend Mr. Jackson” or “The Reverend Jesse Jackson” doesn’t make it correct _by the rules of English grammar._ It may make it an _accepted_ usage, and over time, this may lead to the official rules of grammar being changed. Language is constantly changing. [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reverend) on the style “The Reverend”. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/4 "2009-12-13T18:43:49Z")
And which forum do OP’s seeking opinions goes in? **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/5 "2009-12-13T18:44:00Z")
And does this really belong in _the Pit?_ This OP is far, far too tame for the Pit. ETA - seems someone else already got to it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/6 "2009-12-13T18:50:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reverend) on the style “The Reverend”. Are you American? If so, periods inside the quotation marks, correct? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Urban\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@The\_Urban\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Urban_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/7 "2009-12-13T18:52:08Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Just who or what is the ultimate authority on english grammer or proper language usage? The [Usborne Guide to Better English](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Usborne-Guide-Better-English-Punctuation/dp/0746058438) is. Grammar fascists are, however, utterly tedious. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/8 "2009-12-13T19:11:07Z")
FWIW, the usage of “Reverend” in his [bio on the RainbowPUSH Coalition website](http://www.rainbowpush.org/about/revjackson.html) varies. The title of the bio is “Rev. Jesse Jackson, Founder and President, RainbowPUSH Coalition.” The first sentence of the bio refers to him as “The Reverend Jesse Louis Jackson, Sr.” In subsequent sentences, he is referred to as “Reverend Jackson” and “Reverend Jesse Jackson.” No offense intended to **AT** ; this is just an interesting grammar issue. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/9 "2009-12-13T19:34:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Are you American? If so, periods inside the quotation marks, correct? I believe that only applies to reported speech. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/10 "2009-12-13T21:35:01Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Sometimes you learn from them, correct your long held practice and move on. That’s okay. It’s when they attempt to correct your grammar and you end up wasting time to verify their assertions, that it becomes a pain in the ass. > > [A case in point](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11882550&postcount=33). > > Now in all my nearly 60 years, addressing the minister or pastor as Reverend So and So is so common that it defies my belief that the practice is incorrect. It has been as common as addressing your family physician as Dr. So and So. > > Not as a debating tool, but rather to simply inform myself, I googled both _“the reverend billy graham”_ and _“reverend billy graham”_ to find that the former construction has been used twice as often as the latter. > > My sense is that **Silver Towers** is confused beteen a form of address and a title. You don’t address your pastor as follows, > > “The Reverend So and So, how are you this morning?” > > Neither do you address a supreme judge as follows, > > “The Honourable Scalia, how are you this morning?” > > But none of what I’ve said is worthy to present for argument. Just who or what is the ultimate authority on english grammer or proper language usage? **A.T.** is correct: at least as far as saying that the form he prescribes in unexceptionable in formal written English (in it American, British, and sundry Commonwealth varieties) whereas using “Reverend” as a title instead of a style may be marked by more conservative speakers. The traditional forms are: _The Reverend Billy Graham_ _The Reverend Mr. Graham_ (an old Protestant form that is passing out of currency, I suppose–but recall the Kingston Trio’s song [“Reverend Mr. Black”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0lYDkAfViw)) _The Reverend Father Graham_ (although “Father” is generally only used for Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican/Episcopalian clergy) Likewise, we refer to judges as _The Honorable Frank Easterbrook_ _The Honorable Judge Easterbrook_ or members of Congress as _The Honorable Richard J. Durbin_ _The Honorable Senator Durbin_ You are right that we don’t go around saying “Hello, the Reverend \_\_\_\_\_\_,” but as you point out, neither do we do so with judges (although we might say “Hello, your Honor”) or senators. Judges and senators have titles in addition to styles; some clergy do too (Father being the most common in Christian churches). One of the principles of some variants of Protestantism was to dispense with Roman pageantry, and so it makes sense that “Mr.” is the title they use (or perhaps used, since it is in Low Church Protestantism where you most frequently encounter “Reverend” as a title). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/11 "2009-12-13T23:58:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m not an amateur grammar authority; given that one of my official job duties is editing and proof-reading, I am literally a professional grammar authority, though I am far from an infallible one. > > The fact that “Reverend Jackson” is used more often than “The Reverend Mr. Jackson” or “The Reverend Jesse Jackson” doesn’t make it correct _by the rules of English grammar._ It may make it an _accepted_ usage, and over time, this may lead to the official rules of grammar being changed. Language is constantly changing. > > [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reverend) on the style “The Reverend”. Okay, you’ve got some credentials, and I’m actually learning something. That always interests me. Whether its useful or not is another matter. I have an engineering background, but its been years since I stopped correcting people who report pressure and stress in pounds, which are actually units of force, not pressure.. To do so would serve no purpose other than to show off my self perceived superiority in the knowledge of simple physics. That’s what I’ve been told, so I’m passing the advice forward. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/12 "2009-12-14T00:08:10Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I believe that only applies to reported speech. “Nope.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/13 "2009-12-14T02:51:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m not an amateur grammar authority; given that one of my official job duties is editing and proof-reading, I am literally a professional grammar authority, though I am far from an infallible one. > > The fact that “Reverend Jackson” is used more often than “The Reverend Mr. Jackson” or “The Reverend Jesse Jackson” doesn’t make it correct _by the rules of English grammar._ It may make it an _accepted_ usage, and over time, this may lead to the official rules of grammar being changed. Language is constantly changing. > > [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reverend) on the style “The Reverend”. I hate this stuff about “the rules of English grammar.” The so-called rules were observations made by descriptivists that prescriptivists want to try and make everyone follow. Yet, when the descriptivist notices that the observation is no longer valid, the prescriptivist ignores this, and keeps on preaching the previous observation as a rule that is inherently correct. And they always lose, as language always changes. I guess I am saying you should say “the proper English grammar style.” But that would make me a hypocrite, right? 😃 P.S. There’s also no such thing as the “official rules of grammar”, as English lacks an official body that can make such a pronouncement. But go ahead and use that term anyway, since that’s what everybody seems to use. (There. I can be a descriptivist!) ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/14 "2009-12-14T03:35:55Z")
What is constituting the expression of proper English does well depend upon to whom the bill is going. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/15 "2009-12-14T04:11:51Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > What is constituting the expression of proper English does well depend upon to whom the bill is going. I’m just sure you’ve violated a rule in there somewhere, and when I find it, boy oh boy are you going to be in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/16 "2009-12-14T05:15:29Z")
The essential problem is not so much correct and incorrect usage. It’s more a matter of educated usage and uneducated usage. Proper usage is not determined by a popular vote. However (unfortunately) in the long run the masses do, in fact, drive change so it’s a losing battle to defend prescriptivism. There is a sense in which the village idiot who was the first to apply a new usage was simply ahead of his time–a leader of the correct-usage pack. “Proper” usage of grammar and style serves to separate the educated from the uneducated (and sometimes uneducable) and it slows down the rate of change, which is a significant value in maintaining clarity of meaning. The best everyday rule is that clarity of meaning is most important, followed by educated usage. Where meaning is clear and at issue is educated usage, there is a fine line between defending educated usage to protect the language, and just being a pedant. The principle purpose of pedantry is to correct for the sake of correction with a goal no more noble than asserting usage superiority and by inference, superiority of the one doing the correcting. It’s a game. When there is disagreement among the many lesser pedants who patrol this board, I step in when I can. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/17 "2009-12-14T06:06:06Z")
I _prefer_ ‘the Reverend Mr. So and So’ or ‘the Reverend Firstname So and So’ when you talk about him and just ‘Reverend So and So’ when you talk to him. But I’m not that picky about those. The only thing that really gets me is ‘the Reverend’ instead of ‘the minister,’ ‘the pastor,’ ‘the clergy-in-charge,’ or whatever like that there. Reverend is a title, not a noun-type descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/18 "2009-12-14T08:48:16Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I believe that only applies to reported speech. > [@friedo](#): > > “Nope.” Compare: _“Did you call your mother on her birthday?” my wife asked yesterday. I shook my head and muttered “Nope.”_ with: _More informal versions of the negative answer “no” are “nah”, “nuh uh”, and “nope”._ First sentence: reported speech. Second sentence: not reported speech. The period clearly belongs outside the quotation marks here. Do please try to avoid the one-word _bon mots_ in the future, dear chap; they’re best fit for gay cocktail parties on the lawn and convivial evenings at the supper club rather than discussions of grammar and punctuation. And then only if you’re Oscar Wilde. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/19 "2009-12-14T10:52:50Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Do please try to avoid the one-word _bon mots_ in the future, dear chap; they’re best fit for gay cocktail parties on the lawn and convivial evenings at the supper club rather than discussions of grammar and punctuation. And then only if you’re Oscar Wilde. Do please try to avoid mulit-word _bon mots_ in the future, dear chap; they’re best fit for when you know what you’re talking about. Note: **Friedo** : Location = Brooklyn **Olentzero** : Location = Sweden Per the Chicago Manual of Style: > [@6.8 Periods and commas](#): > > Periods and commas precede closing quotation marks, whether double or single. This is a traditional style, in use well before the first edition of this manual (1906). As nicely expressed in William Strunk Jr. and E. B. White’s Elements of Style, “Typographical usage dictates that the comma be inside the [quotation] marks, though logically it often seems not to belong there” (p. 36; see bibliog. 1.1). The same goes for the period. (An apostrophe at the end of a word should never be confused with a closing single quotation mark; punctuation always follows the apostrophe.) > [@6.10 Alternative system](#): > > According to what is sometimes called the British style (set forth in The Oxford Guide to Style [the successor to Hart’s Rules; see bibliog. 1.1]), a style also followed in other English-speaking countries, only those punctuation points that appeared in the original material should be included within the quotation marks; all others follow the closing quotation marks. This system, which requires extreme authorial precision and occasional decisions by the editor or typesetter, works best with single quotation marks. (The British tend to use double quotation marks only for quotations within quotations.) ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/20 "2009-12-14T11:31:21Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > in formal written English (in it American, British, and sundry Commonwealth varieties) > > Likewise, we refer to judges as > > _The Honorable Frank Easterbrook_ > _The Honorable Judge Easterbrook_ His/Her Honour, Judge “X”, is the form that most Brits and sundry Australians, at least, use. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117.md?page=2)