# Amateur Grammar Authorities **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 13, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117 "2009-12-13T17:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/21 "2009-12-14T13:51:24Z")
Having read all the above, I’m still not clear on the prescriptivist view when writing a letter to a Reverend. Surely the correct form of address is “Dear Rev. Jackson”, not “Dear The Reverend Jackson”, or anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/22 "2009-12-14T13:53:04Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Do please try to avoid mulit-word _bon mots_ in the future, dear chap; they’re best fit for when you know what you’re talking about. > > Note: > **Friedo** : Location = Brooklyn > **Olentzero** : Location = Sweden > > Per the Chicago Manual of Style: > _ **Originally Posted by 6.8 Periods and commas** > Periods and commas precede closing quotation marks, whether double or single. This is a traditional style, in use well before the first edition of this manual (1906). As nicely expressed in William Strunk Jr. and E. B. White’s Elements of Style, “Typographical usage dictates that the comma be inside the [quotation] marks, though logically it often seems not to belong there” (p. 36; see bibliog. 1.1). The same goes for the period. (An apostrophe at the end of a word should never be confused with a closing single quotation mark; punctuation always follows the apostrophe._) Kids, kids…let me step in here. This notion of Strunk’s and White’s about putting the quote marks after the period at the end of the sentence (for instance) is one of the worst crimes ever committed against clear usage. That bonehead notion alone should have diminished their entire work into oblivion. Don Quixote and I are on a mission: Change usage so that quotes go around what was quoted. Unless you follow this simple rule–well, it will be a rule when **CP** rules the usage world–meaning is obfuscated, and there is no excuse for that. It’s also just plain stupid to put a quote mark where it doesn’t belong (after the period at the end of a sentence, for example) even though putting it inside the period opens oneself up to the petty tyrants quoting Strunk and White. Notice, please: She said, “I am going home. Period.”. She said, “I am going home. Period!”. She said, “I am going home. Period!”! She said, “I am going home. Period.”! She said, “I am going home. Period.”? There is only ONE way to make clear what was communicated–what was said and how it was said–and that is to put everything that is being quoted inside of quote marks and everything else where it otherwise belongs. This also neatly solves the secondary usage problem of making exceptions for where to put the quotes when an exclamation or question mark is used. The only reason for those exceptions is the sheer stupidity of the usage rule requiring quotes be outside the closing sentence mark in the first place… The Reverand and the wife both support me in this endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/23 "2009-12-14T13:56:43Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > We is!😃 I believe the correct syntax for that is “We be!”. :D:D ---
**Author:** ![KittenKat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kittenkat/32/306_2.png) [@KittenKat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KittenKat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/24 "2009-12-14T14:30:52Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Having read all the above, I’m still not clear on the prescriptivist view when writing a letter to a Reverend. Surely the correct form of address is “Dear Rev. Jackson”, not “Dear The Reverend Jackson”, or anything else? My understanding is that the envelope would be addressed to “The Reverend Mr. Jesse Jackson,” and the salutation on the letter inside would simply be “Dear Mr. Jackson.” ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/25 "2009-12-14T14:50:18Z")
:rolleyes: Note the question that started this sidetrack: > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Are you American? If so, periods inside the quotation marks, correct? It was (generally) incorrectly answered by **Olentzero**. **Friedo** gave the ostensibly correct answer, albeit being a bit cutesy. **Olentzero** fired back, attempting to be witty, but failed miserably – Friedo was actually correct. Now **Chief Pedant** , being anything but, decides to make up rules and forget that there are commonly used references for these sorts of things. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > This also neatly solves the secondary usage problem of making exceptions for where to put the quotes when an exclamation or question mark is used. Per Chicago: > [@6.9 Colons](#): > > Unlike periods and commas, these all follow closing quotation marks unless a question mark or an exclamation point belongs within the quoted matter. (This rule applies the logic absent in 6.8.) > > **Take, for example, the first line of “To a Skylark”: “Hail to thee, blithe spirit!” > I was asked to state my “name and serial number”; I have no serial number. > Which of Shakespeare’s characters said, “All the world’s a stage”? > “Where are you from?” > “Watch out!”** and > [@11.33 Quotations and “quotes within quotes”](#): > > Quoted words, phrases, and sentences run into the text are enclosed in double quotation marks. Single quotation marks enclose quotations within quotations; double marks, quotations within these; and so on. For permissible changes from single to double quotation marks and vice versa, see 11.8(1). For dialogue, see 11.43. For technical uses of single quotation marks, see 7.52, 8.138. > > “Don’t be absurd!” said Henry. “To say that ‘I mean what I say’ is the same as ‘I say what I mean’ is to be as confused as Alice at the Mad Hatter’s tea party. You remember what the Hatter said to her: ‘Not the same thing a bit! Why you might just as well say that “I see what I eat” is the same thing as “I eat what I see”!’” > > The practice in other English-speaking countries is often the reverse: single marks are used first, then double, and so on. and > [@11.34 Placement of closing quotation marks](#): > > Note carefully not only the placement of the single and double closing quotation marks but also that of the exclamation points in relation to those marks in the example above. Question marks and exclamation points are placed just within the set of quotation marks ending the element to which such terminal punctuation belongs. For the placement of other punctuation—commas, periods, question marks, and so on—in relation to closing quotation marks, see 6.8–10. Yes, there are other style guides (see my first comment in the thread). But that doesn’t stop me from asking you to turn in your pedant’s license. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/26 "2009-12-14T15:44:24Z")
> [@KittenKat](#): > > My understanding is that the envelope would be addressed to “The Reverend Mr. Jesse Jackson,” and the salutation on the letter inside would simply be “Dear Mr. Jackson.” IMHO, while this is fine, if I was requesting anything from Mr. Jackson, I would err on the side of including honorifics rather than dispensing with them, therefore “Dear Reverend Jackson”. Not meant as an evaluation of Mr. Jackson’s work, just noting that it requires some element of attention-seeking, so I’d guess that buttering him up with honorifics is going to be more effective than using a plain “Mr.”. ---
**Author:** ![KittenKat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kittenkat/32/306_2.png) [@KittenKat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KittenKat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/27 "2009-12-14T16:00:40Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > IMHO, while this is fine, if I was requesting anything from Mr. Jackson, I would err on the side of including honorifics rather than dispensing with them, therefore “Dear Reverend Jackson”. Not meant as an evaluation of Mr. Jackson’s work, just noting that it requires some element of attention-seeking, so I’d guess that buttering him up with honorifics is going to be more effective than using a plain “Mr.”. Well, you are of course welcome to call him whatever you like, but the question was, if “Reverend Jackson” is considered to be an incorrect form of address, what would the correct salutation be? According to Wkipedia, Jackson has an honorary theological doctorate. If you want to butter the man up and still conform the traditional, educated use of “Reverend,” you can address the envelope to “The Reverend Dr. Jesse Jackson,” and begin your letter “Dear Dr. Jackson.” ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/28 "2009-12-14T16:33:18Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > It was (generally) incorrectly answered by **Olentzero**. **Friedo** gave the ostensibly correct answer, albeit being a bit cutesy. **Olentzero** fired back, attempting to be witty, but failed miserably – Friedo was actually correct. Now **Chief Pedant** , being anything but, decides to make up rules and forget that there are commonly used references for these sorts of things. > > Yes, there are other style guides (see my first comment in the thread). But that doesn’t stop me from asking you to turn in your pedant’s license. 😛 Or perhaps, in your rush to quote more sources, you forgot to read my post. I am, indeed, making up a new Rule, and I said so in my post. Me 'n Don Quixote, remember? Because changing the behaviour of pedants whose significance comes from being pedantic is an impossible task, I realize. I am not arguing that style and usage guides don’t recommend we place quote marks after periods and commas–they do. I am arguing that this particular rule diminishes clarity, and that the primary rule should be clarity. I have given you some examples to show you how much more clearly meaning can be conveyed by simply putting quotes around what was quoted. There is a secondary benefit that the rule can be made more consistent–it doesn’t have to make exceptions for the problem it created in the first place. Style and usage guides feed off one another. They (as do you) use antecedent sources as prima facie arguments for doing things a certain way. But–and read carefully here–they are wrong about this particular usage being appropriate to follow, promote or enforce, **because this particular rule diminishes clarity**. There is a reason I am the Chief Pedant.\* That reason is so that when underling pedants get carried away trying to base their pedantry on “rules” which are actually detrimental to clear communication, I can correct them. When I have time. And even when they drag out Elements of Style. \*The other reason is that I thought of it first, much to the dismay of the other pedants here, most of whom can read but many of whom cannot think for themselves while they are racing to Mama in the hope of finding Authorities to quote vapid Rules…whoops; forgot we aren’t in the Pit anymore… ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/29 "2009-12-14T16:47:17Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > There is a reason I am the Chief Pedant.\* That reason is so that when underling pedants get carried away trying to base their pedantry on “rules” which are actually detrimental to clear communication, I can correct them. When I have time. And even when they drag out Elements of Style. You poor thing. I’m sure you were a pedant at one time, I’m sure you were a very _good_ pedant. But it seems time has worn on, the world has moved passed you, and your once-tight grip on definitions and books has turned arthritically soft. It’s OK, you’re still very special, in your own special way. And it’s OK because a lot of us who know what ‘pedant’ means have long shunned it with regards to grammar and usage. Though we do tend to follow conventions and match particular style to particular clients and contexts, we welcome you and your new-found free spirit. Have some cocoa. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/30 "2009-12-14T19:03:51Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > “The Honourable Scalia, how are you this morning?” This is definitely not the appropriate way to address him. This is: _Get the fuck out of my way, you fucking fuck._ ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/31 "2009-12-14T19:14:16Z")
> [@Docta\_G](#): > > This is definitely not the appropriate way to address him. This is: _Get the fuck out of my way, you fucking fuck._ Or … Scalia, get your honorable ass the fuck out of my way, you fucking fuck! ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/32 "2009-12-14T22:21:29Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Or … > > Scalia, get your honorable ass the fuck out of my way, you fucking fuck! “In my humble opinion” I am sure you meant to say, since we have left the Pit. Which is why I’m letting you off the hook for now on your other pouty response to my excellent and insightful post without mocking you for not even trying to mount an actual defense of any kind for the usage you are defending. It’s good you are trying to break free of pedantry but as long as you persist in defending quotes after periods and comments your behaviour will belie your words. That particular rule is a pedant’s dream, often implemented as a pedantic “gotcha” but never successfully defended when challenged that it is one of the usage rules that actually obfuscates communication. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/33 "2009-12-14T23:29:00Z")
> [@KittenKat](#): > > My understanding is that the envelope would be addressed to “The Reverend Mr. Jesse Jackson,” and the salutation on the letter inside would simply be “Dear Mr. Jackson.” I’m pretty sure that in the kind of church that Mr. Jackson belongs to, people would address him as “Reverend Jackson” in much the same way I would call my pastor “Pastor So-and-so” or a Roman Catholic would call their priest “Father Ted.” ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/34 "2009-12-15T00:57:33Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > It was (generally) incorrectly answered by **Olentzero**. **Friedo** gave the ostensibly correct answer, albeit being a bit cutesy. **Olentzero** fired back, attempting to be witty, but failed miserably – Friedo was actually correct. Now **Chief Pedant** , being anything but, decides to make up rules and forget that there are commonly used references for these sorts of things. Me am do good at grammor. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/35 "2009-12-15T01:25:41Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > When I have time. And even when they drag out Elements of Style. As an amateur pedant, I am horrified that anyone would dredge out Elements of Style as a source for anything other than obfuscation, inaccuracy, and linguistic turpitude. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/36 "2009-12-15T01:33:50Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Are you American? If so, periods inside the quotation marks, correct? Amateur grammarian (aren’t we all?) and American. I will on principle refuse to put anything insice quotation marks unless part of the original or in brackets. Perhaps you prefer, “Here is a quote[.]” ---
**Author:** ![KittenKat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kittenkat/32/306_2.png) [@KittenKat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KittenKat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/37 "2009-12-15T15:00:03Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > I’m pretty sure that in the kind of church that Mr. Jackson belongs to, people would address him as “Reverend Jackson” in much the same way I would call my pastor “Pastor So-and-so” or a Roman Catholic would call their priest “Father Ted.” That may well be, but it has nothing to do with the question I was answering. The assertion was made that _Reverend_ is not properly, or at least not traditionally, used as a form of direct address. One may speak or write about _The Reverend John Smith_, or _The Reverend Mr. (John) Smith_, or _The Reverend Dr. (John) Smith_, if Dr. is appropriate, but using _Reverend_ or _Rev_. in place of _Mister_ or _Mr._ (or in place of _Doctor_ or _Dr._) Is Not Done by educated speakers/writers. Dead Cat asked, **according to this prescriptivist point of view** , what is the correct way to address a minister directly? The answer is to use Mr. (or Miss, Mrs., or Ms.) or Dr., as appropriate. I will add that this usage is a formal one. Depending upon how well the speaker knows the minister, it may be appropriate to address him as Pastor (or some similar title), John, or Jack. ---
**Author:** ![Harry1945](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Harry1945](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harry1945)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/38 "2009-12-16T03:35:07Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > You poor thing. I’m sure you were a pedant at one time, I’m sure you were a very _good_ pedant. But it seems time has worn on, **the world has moved passed you,** and your once-tight grip on definitions and books has turned arthritically soft. It’s OK, you’re still very special, in your own special way. > > And it’s OK because a lot of us who know what ‘pedant’ means have long shunned it with regards to grammar and usage. Though we do tend to follow conventions and match particular style to particular clients and contexts, we welcome you and your new-found free spirit. Have some cocoa. The part in bold should be either: “…the world has passed you,” or “…the world has moved past you.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/39 "2009-12-16T05:03:24Z")
> [@KittenKat](#): > > That may well be, but it has nothing to do with the question I was answering. > > The assertion was made that _Reverend_ is not properly, or at least not traditionally, used as a form of direct address. One may speak or write about _The Reverend John Smith_, or _The Reverend Mr. (John) Smith_, or _The Reverend Dr. (John) Smith_, if Dr. is appropriate, but using _Reverend_ or _Rev_. in place of _Mister_ or _Mr._ (or in place of _Doctor_ or _Dr._) Is Not Done by educated speakers/writers. > > Dead Cat asked, **according to this prescriptivist point of view** , what is the correct way to address a minister directly? The answer is to use Mr. (or Miss, Mrs., or Ms.) or Dr., as appropriate. > > I will add that this usage is a formal one. Depending upon how well the speaker knows the minister, it may be appropriate to address him as Pastor (or some similar title), John, or Jack. Yip. It’s quite similar to the Southern practice of referring to your doctor as Dr. Firstname or just Doc. You wouldn’t do it in formal writing, though. Or, at least, the vast majority of educated people wouldn’t. In my haste to nitpick above, I forgot to mention that my pastor’s son-in-law is also pastors a church, and his getting his doctorate in theology was a big deal to him (as he has learning disabilities). Thus, Pastor always introduces him as “Pastor The Reverend Doctor Ronald Smith”. We, on the other hand, just call him Brother Ronnie. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117/40 "2009-12-16T21:18:16Z")
Among Americans, moving punctuation such as commas and periods outside of quotation marks is a practice generally reserved for (a) those who don’t even know what a style guide is, let alone how to follow one, and (b) nauseously grating Anglophiles who also insist on referring to elevators as lifts, trunks as boots, and potato chips as crisps. They shall be the first up against the wall etc. etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amateur-grammar-authorities/521117.md?page=3)