# Amazing Anthropological Find! "New Human-like Species found in South Africa" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 10, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528 "2015-09-10T16:32:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/1 "2015-09-10T16:32:07Z")
Hey, take a look at this! (from BBC-News) > **[New human-like species discovered in S Africa](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34192447)** > > Scientists in South Africa have discovered a new human-like species, which could change ideas about our early relatives. Amazing, exciting stuff! ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/2 "2015-09-10T16:50:27Z")
I saw that story this morning on Reuters. Pretty darn cool. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/3 "2015-09-10T17:47:08Z")
Yes. Not so much the discovery (really, the assignment) of a new species per se – that’s more about taxonomic lumping and splitting – but the fact that this variety seems to have had “rituals” (broadly defined) regarding their dead – a likely indicator of a more advanced culture than many expected. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/4 "2015-09-10T18:45:54Z")
Sounds very cool, but if they haven’t even carbon dated yet - I’m holding off in getting excited. I mean is this being generally accepted by the scientific community? If so that would be awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/5 "2015-09-10T18:53:27Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > Sounds very cool, but if they haven’t even carbon dated yet - I’m holding off in getting excited. > > I mean is this being generally accepted by the scientific community? > > If so that would be awesome. Carbon dating won’t help - it is only useful to around 40-50,000 years bp. These remains are alleged to be much older than that (40-50K pb is firmly in modern human territory). > ---
**Author:** ![Redshirt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@Redshirt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redshirt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/6 "2015-09-10T19:20:44Z")
Nice! Though it bothers me when a scientist says > [@](#): > > nature was experimenting with how to evolve humans Makes it sound like we were the plan from the start. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/7 "2015-09-10T19:30:49Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Yes. Not so much the discovery (really, the assignment) of a new species per se – that’s more about taxonomic lumping and splitting – but the fact that this variety seems to have had “rituals” (broadly defined) regarding their dead – a likely indicator of a more advanced culture than many expected. Is it suggested that the cave was as difficult to enter as now when the burials occurred? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/8 "2015-09-10T20:05:13Z")
Look forward to seeing the dating – without knowing the dates, it’s nearly impossible to fit it onto our evolutionary tree (and whether they might be on or near the main “trunk” that leads to us or just a branch). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/9 "2015-09-10T20:12:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is it suggested that the cave was as difficult to enter as now when the burials occurred? That’s an exact point of controversy. There are contentions that the cave was originally more accessible, or that the bodies were washed into the cave. As against that, there is no evidence of other debris in the cave (presumably, a more accessible and/or water-deposited corpses would have left other debris in the same place). No evidence of animals gnawing the bones, either. It will be interesting to see how this story evolves. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/10 "2015-09-10T20:13:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Look forward to seeing the dating – without knowing the dates, it’s nearly impossible to fit it onto our evolutionary tree (and whether they might be on or near the main “trunk” that leads to us or just a branch). They cannot be placed by resemblance to other fossil remains? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/11 "2015-09-10T20:16:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They cannot be placed by resemblance to other fossil remains? Not with much accuracy, from my understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/12 "2015-09-10T20:26:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Look forward to seeing the dating – without knowing the dates, it’s nearly impossible to fit it onto our evolutionary tree (and whether they might be on or near the main “trunk” that leads to us or just a branch). I don’t think there is any good method for dating hominid fossils that are alleged to be three million years old directly. Usually, hominid fossils are found buried in a layer of rock, and the surrounding rock may then be dated by potassium-argon dating. [http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/dating-rocks-and-fossils-using-geologic-methods-107924044](http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/dating-rocks-and-fossils-using-geologic-methods-107924044) This find sounds very unusual, in that the bones were found in a cave, basically lying on the floor, without a layer of rock over them. If that is true, they may prove very difficult to date accurately. They are simply too old for carbon-dating the bones directly. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/13 "2015-09-10T21:54:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They cannot be placed by resemblance to other fossil remains? They are an odd mix of traits linking them to both _Australopithecus_ and _Homo_. They _should_ fall somewhere between _A. afarensis_ (“Lucy”) and _H. habilis_. But if it turns out they were later than the expected time period, it would also be extraordinary, and would indicate either a later branching or a late survival. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/14 "2015-09-10T21:56:37Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > Sounds very cool, but if they haven’t even carbon dated yet - I’m holding off in getting excited. > > I mean is this being generally accepted by the scientific community? > > If so that would be awesome. The fossils are well documented and unquestionably very unusual. And that won’t change regardless of what the date is. No matter what the date turns out to be, the fossils are significant. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/15 "2015-09-11T01:16:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think there is any good method for dating hominid fossils that are alleged to be three million years old directly. Usually, hominid fossils are found buried in a layer of rock, and the surrounding rock may then be dated by potassium-argon dating. No rats, no other humanoids in three million years. No earthquakes. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/16 "2015-09-11T13:39:52Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No rats, no other humanoids in three million years. No earthquakes. > Wow. Assuming the cave access hasn’t changed, the lack of other hominids visiting isn’t surprising. 😉 My wife’s reaction to the discovery: ‘some people found those bones while crawling through a narrow crack in the rock deep underground that hadn’t been mapped for fun?’ :eek: ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/17 "2015-09-11T14:06:46Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > the fact that this variety seems to have had “rituals” (broadly defined) regarding their dead – a likely indicator of a more advanced culture than many expected. I’m as fascinated by this as anybody, …but I’m gonna rain on the parade , and ask an innocent question: why do these bones show evidence of ancient rituals? The bones comes from 15 individuals of all ages. But why does that show evidence of burial? They could have been a single family unit. They are lots of species in nature who live in bands or family units, with several generations and maybe an alpha male. The bones were found in a cave which today is _totally_ inaccesible. This [National Geographic article](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150910-human-evolution-change/) has a graphic showing a profile of the cave.You can’t even crawl into it–you have to lay on your belly and wriggle like a snake to get to the chamber.. And if you want to bury someone as a ritual, you can’t drag another body with you into the chamber, (unless you have ropes and know how to tie knots..using a brain smaller than a chimpanzee.) So the obvious conclusion is that there must have been another entrance to the cave a million years ago. Maybe this group of hominids simply walked into the cave together-- to get out of the rain, or to hide from a sabre-toothed tiger, or to watch porn on their smartphones. Then a disaster happened-- maybe a storm caused a mudslide that blocked the entrance to the cave. Then the entire family just died of thirst within 3 days. ## They may be a new species,and they do sorta look like us\*–but why do we have to assume that these bodies were intentionally buried in a ritual way? (yes, I know that there is no evidence of food, tools, other animals, etc, in the cave. So it’s a nice, (and wonderfully intriguing!) idea that the bodies were placed there intentionally after death. But we can’t know. \*If you want to believe the artist who painted the picture at the top of the Nat. Geographic link. I’m sure he drew the bone structure with scientific accuracy , but why does this man/ape have no hair on his body? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/18 "2015-09-11T14:24:02Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m as fascinated by this as anybody, …but I’m gonna rain on the parade , and ask an innocent question: why do these bones show evidence of ancient rituals? > > The bones comes from 15 individuals of all ages. But why does that show evidence of burial? > > They could have been a single family unit. They are lots of species in nature who live in bands or family units, with several generations and maybe an alpha male. > > The bones were found in a cave which today is _totally_ inaccesible. This [National Geographic article](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150910-human-evolution-change/) has a graphic showing a profile of the cave.You can’t even crawl into it–you have to lay on your belly and wriggle like a snake to get to the chamber… And if you want to bury someone as a ritual, you can’t drag another body with you into the chamber, (unless you have ropes and know how to tie knots…using a brain smaller than a chimpanzee.) > > So the obvious conclusion is that there must have been another entrance to the cave a million years ago. > > Maybe this group of hominids simply walked into the cave together-- to get out of the rain, or to hide from a sabre-toothed tiger, or to watch porn on their smartphones. > Then a disaster happened-- maybe a storm caused a mudslide that blocked the entrance to the cave. Then the entire family just died of thirst within 3 days. > > ## They may be a new species,and they do sorta look like us\*–but why do we have to assume that these bodies were intentionally buried in a ritual way? (yes, I know that there is no evidence of food, tools, other animals, etc, in the cave. So it’s a nice, (and wonderfully intriguing!) idea that the bodies were placed there intentionally after death. But we can’t know. > > \*If you want to believe the artist who painted the picture at the top of the Nat. Geographic link. I’m sure he drew the bone structure with scientific accuracy , but why does this man/ape have no hair on his body? The article you linked to addresses some of these questions. In particular, the claim is made (don’t know how it holds up) that the bodies were not from the same incident, but appear to have arrived at different times. Most likely the access was easier in ancient times - but not too easy, or there would have been all sorts of other stuff there as well. From the article: > [@](#): > > The researchers don’t argue that these much more primitive hominins navigated Superman’s Crawl and the harrowing shark-mouth chute while dragging corpses behind them—that would go beyond improbable to incredible. Maybe back then Superman’s Crawl was wide enough to be walkable, and maybe the hominins simply dropped their burden into the chute without climbing down themselves. Over time the growing pile of bones might have slowly tumbled into the neighboring chamber. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/19 "2015-09-11T14:32:46Z")
Perhaps someone shot up the post office, and needed a place to dispose of the bodies. I like the theory that the tunnel was walkable at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazing-anthropological-find-new-human-like-species-found-in-south-africa/730528/20 "2015-09-11T15:18:29Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Maybe this group of hominids simply walked into the cave together-- to get out of the rain, or to hide from a sabre-toothed tiger, or to watch porn on their smartphones. > Then a disaster happened-- maybe a storm caused a mudslide that blocked the entrance to the cave. Then the entire family just died of thirst within 3 days. While I don’t know the details, it may be that fragmentary remains are intermixed with more intact skeletons in such a way that it implies they had already been fragmented before the more complete remains were dropped in. But that’s a guess.