# Amazon.com and SBVT
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 4, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068 "2004-09-04T02:53:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/1 "2004-09-04T02:53:15Z")
At [www.amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com) the current bestseller is a book called unfit for command describing the complaints of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, led by John O’neil, against Presidential candidate John Kerry.
I feel that something very interesting and important is going on at [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) concerning this book.
[Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) has adopted the following policy concerning this title _and this title alone_\*
> [@](#):
>
> Important note from [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com): We’ve decided to suspend our normal customer review policies and rules for this title. For example, we usually prohibit ad hominem attacks. That policy in particular seems to be incompatible with presidential election year politics. Therefore, short of obscenities, reviews on this book are now a free-for-all. We take no responsibility for the following discussion. Aren’t presidential election years great? Have fun!
Out of all the books and goods that are offered at [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) this is the **only** one that is exempt from normal policies as to reviews.
I would hope that all participants to this thread would leave their political views at the door. This is not about the relative merits of the book, or who you want for President. This is about this particular policy at [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com). I would also hope that before participating, you might mosey over to [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), look at the reviews and see what’s going on.
Personally, I thing that Amazon has made a disastrously huge mistake with this policy.
They have opened themselves to accusations of discriminatory practices and favoritism. No matter what their intent is (and I have no clue why they would do this) It is discriminatory and represents favoritism.
As a Republican, I would be pissed off that Amazon is allowing bashing of only an anti-kerry book. Will we also get to bash Michael Moore’s DVD?
As a Liberal I would be pissed that this policy actually brings particular attention and focus to this one book above all others.
As a shareholder I would be upset that Amazon is applying it’s policies inconsistently, angering customers and creating negative controversy, while potentially leaving itself liable to lawsuits.
As an author I would be upset about this breach of the integrity of the review process.
---
### Author:  [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/2 "2004-09-04T03:00:10Z")
Totally with you on this. And pleased to you see back for #10,000.
---
### Author:  [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/3 "2004-09-04T03:02:11Z")
And, incidentally, you might be able to tell why I don’t post all that often.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/4 "2004-09-04T03:21:43Z")
(How can this be? Surely not his own hard-earned money…squandered only for our poor company…must have been begged, that must be it… a scholarship, an honorarium, only way it could have happened…beseeched and implored, he relented…yes, that must be it…it would be gracious and dignified to offer a welcome…even magnanimous!..Ah well, we are what we are…and what we aren’t…probably missed me…)
They didn’t want to get involved. So they said, in essence, a plague o’er both your houses, we don’t care, knock yourselves out, long as you buy books…
One question: does Amazon process bulk orders, that favorite scam of sleazy politics? Can, say, General Bullmoose buy 10,000 copies, pass them around to employees and other victims, take it off his taxes as an “educational charity” donation, and boost the fortunes of a pack of vicioius, slimy attack dogs? (Politics? What politics? Theoretical question only!)…
---
### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/5 "2004-09-04T03:22:30Z")
If Amazon doesn’t shut this one down in the next 24 hours, I’ll be surprised.
What stupidity.
It took me _hours_ to click through over 2000 posts and vote yes or no on each one. 😃
Welcome back?
---
### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/6 "2004-09-04T04:41:39Z")
I don’t see the purpose of suspending rules for _this_ book and this book only. Why does it deserve a dispensation from normal rules while others about similar topics don’t? I’m wondering if the publisher asked for this specifically; I can’t see why the board (or whatever group/individual it is that runs amazon) would decide on this if it wasn’t based on pressure from outside.
---
### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/7 "2004-09-04T04:54:11Z")
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> I don’t see the purpose of suspending rules for _this_ book and this book only. Why does it deserve a dispensation from normal rules while others about similar topics don’t? I’m wondering if the publisher asked for this specifically; I can’t see why the board (or whatever group/individual it is that runs amazon) would decide on this if it wasn’t based on pressure from outside.
Sheer greed. Works every time. Notice how many people have posted so far in their review section.
Capitalism knows no father nor mother.
---
### Author:  [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/8 "2004-09-04T05:48:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Important note from [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com): We’ve decided to suspend our normal customer review policies and rules for this title. For example, we usually prohibit ad hominem attacks. That policy in particular seems to be incompatible with presidential election year politics. Therefore, short of obscenities, reviews on this book are now a free-for-all. We take no responsibility for the following discussion. Aren’t presidential election years great? Have fun!
I am certainly no scholar, but this looks to me like they’re saying “Slander? Libel? Outright, blatant lying? You can’t hold us accountable for jack! Say whatever you like, facts and decency be damned!”
This should prove interesting.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/9 "2004-09-04T05:51:14Z")
Well, yes, I suppose, in much the same way as a beach volleyball game at a leper colony is “interesting”.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/10 "2004-09-04T05:52:36Z")
However, I think you nailed it **Iamphuna**. Got it in one, nothing more to see here, you looky-loos, move along now…
---
### Author:  [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/11 "2004-09-04T09:46:46Z")
> [@samclem](#):
>
> Welcome back?
I grant you, it is questionable.
More power to you for saying it. You’re a better woman than I am.
---
### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/12 "2004-09-04T10:33:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#):
>
> …They have opened themselves to accusations of discriminatory practices and favoritism. No matter what their intent is (and I have no clue why they would do this) It is discriminatory and represents favoritism…
I don’t see how anyone can dispute this. Not a one of their _many_ other controversial titles got such treatment.
Eh, Bezos is a Democrat, so what can one expect? I would guess that some phone calls from the Kerry camp (not directly linkable to Mssr.Kerry, of course) were placed to Br’r Bezos, subtle pressures were exerted, and presto! Granted, I don’t think that too many people are going to trudge through the klugey comment system just to read the output of some dutiful DU’r, but the matter stinks nonetheless.
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> (How can this be? Surely not his own hard-earned money…squandered only for our poor company…must have been begged, that must be it… a scholarship, an honorarium…)
He is a proud benificiary of the **December Memorial SDMB Membership Fund**. You know, that goofy charge on your credit card you keep getting…
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/13 "2004-09-04T12:06:35Z")
Ooooooh, those treacherous Democrats! Isn’t it enough that they scorn the heroic service of GeeDubya (Praise the Leader!) in the harrowing Battle of Amarillo? Isn’t enough that they hound such patriots as O’Neill and Corsi with their scurrilous “facts” and “documents”? No, it would seem not! They are determined to undermine the very foundation of Holy Commerce, and to inhibit our God-given right to hear one side of the story, over and over and over…
---
### Author:  [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/14 "2004-09-04T13:00:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Well, yes, I suppose, in much the same way as a beach volleyball game at a leper colony is “interesting”.
:eek:
Great galloping Og, **luci**! Now I have to go scrub my inner eye. (Where’s that puke smilie when you need it?)
:: waving pompoms vigorously ::
Welcome back, **Scylla**! Missed ya! When can we expect another serial saga?
---
### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/15 "2004-09-04T21:12:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Isn’t enough that they hound such patriots as O’Neill and Corsi with their scurrilous “facts” and “documents”?
Yeah, how DARE O’Neill suggest that Kerry wasn’t in Cambodia! How DARE they!
---
### Author:  [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/16 "2004-09-04T21:32:39Z")
Firstly: Wilkommen, Bienvenue and Welcome back to **Scylla**.
Now, on to other, more pressing things:
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> Eh, Bezos is a Democrat, so what can one expect? I would guess that some phone calls from the Kerry camp (not directly linkable to Mssr.Kerry, of course) were placed to Br’r Bezos, subtle pressures were exerted, and presto! Granted, I don’t think that too many people are going to trudge through the klugey comment system just to read the output of some dutiful DU’r, but the matter stinks nonetheless.
Horsehit, pure and simple. “Bezos is a Democrat, so what can one expect?” Really? Then you’re just chockablock full of instances wherein other titles by conservative authors and their bigoted co-authors had this same thing happen. So, where are they? Time to put up or retract.
As to the practice, I think that it’s pretty dumb and will bite 'em on the ass.
---
### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/17 "2004-09-04T21:44:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Then you’re just chockablock full of instances wherein other titles by conservative authors and their bigoted co-authors had this same thing happen.
Conversely, show an example of a liberal author’s book meeting this same treatment. Time to put up or retract.
---
### Author:  [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/18 "2004-09-04T21:47:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#):
>
> At [www.amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com) the current bestseller is a book called unfit for command describing the complaints of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, led by John O’neil, against Presidential candidate John Kerry.
>
> I feel that something very interesting and important is going on at [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) concerning this book.
>
> [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) has adopted the following policy concerning this title _and this title alone_\*
>
> Out of all the books and goods that are offered at [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) this is the **only** one that is exempt from normal policies as to reviews.
>
> I would hope that all participants to this thread would leave their political views at the door. This is not about the relative merits of the book, or who you want for President. This is about this particular policy at [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com). I would also hope that before participating, you might mosey over to [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), look at the reviews and see what’s going on.
>
> Personally, I thing that Amazon has made a disastrously huge mistake with this policy.
>
> They have opened themselves to accusations of discriminatory practices and favoritism. No matter what their intent is (and I have no clue why they would do this) It is discriminatory and represents favoritism.
>
> As a Republican, I would be pissed off that Amazon is allowing bashing of only an anti-kerry book. Will we also get to bash Michael Moore’s DVD?
>
> As a Liberal I would be pissed that this policy actually brings particular attention and focus to this one book above all others.
>
> As a shareholder I would be upset that Amazon is applying it’s policies inconsistently, angering customers and creating negative controversy, while potentially leaving itself liable to lawsuits.
>
> As an author I would be upset about this breach of the integrity of the review process.
Here’s my guess: The sheer volume of user comments was so huge, and the man-hours Amazon had to devote to reviewing them so large (and the calls on whether something was veering into ad hominem, etc., so contentious in this case), that they just gave up and opened the floodgates.
I don’t think Amazon is obliged to spend countless hours reviewing all of those reviews. But I’m just guessing that the order of things was
1. book released
2. user reviews flooded in
3. Amazon staff overwhelmed
4. Amazon throws in the towel.
Now if the actual order was
1. book released
2. Amazon said, “we’re not getting involved in this brouhaha”
3. user reviews flooded in
then Amazon acted wrongly. But if something (that doesn’t generate income directly) was costing them time/money, then I can’t blame them for axing it. And, no, I don’t think they’re obliged to then eliminate ALL moderation for user reviews. If Fahrenheit 911 triggers a similar time-suck, then I’d expect them to cut off moderation there, too.
---
### Author:  [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/19 "2004-09-04T21:57:25Z")
Simple economics. Amazon knew they couldn’t possibly moderate the morass that would be that comment section without devoting staff to it. They had to decide between giving up trying or shutting down discussion entirely. I guess this tells us one important thing: it came up tails.
---
### Author:  [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-and-sbvt/263068/20 "2004-09-04T22:53:17Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#):
>
> Conversely, show an example of a liberal author’s book meeting this same treatment. Time to put up or retract.
Nonsense. I never claimed that anything of the sort was going to or ever had happened.
Since you missed it, I’ll just go ahead and put it out here again:
> [@](#):
>
> As to the practice, I think that it’s pretty dumb and will bite 'em on the ass.
I hope you caught it that time. If not, lemme know and I’ll quote it again.
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