# Amazon.com removes queer and trans books from bestseller lists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853 "2009-04-12T16:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/1 "2009-04-12T16:23:04Z")
It’s come to my attention that a number of gay authors found that the sales ranks had been removed from their books at [amazon.com](http://amazon.com), preventing them from showing up on the best-seller lists and in certain searches. An author who queried Amazon about this [was told:](http://markprobst.livejournal.com/15293.html) > [@](#): > > In consideration of our entire customer base, we exclude “adult” material from appearing in some searches and best seller lists. Since these lists are generated using sales ranks, adult materials must also be excluded from that feature. Over the next day or two, rankings were removed from numerous LGBT books, from classics of LGBT literature to young adult fiction, [including](http://community.livejournal.com/meta_writer/11992.html): - James Baldwin’s _Giovanni’s Room_ - Jeanette Winterson’s _Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit_ - Radclyffe Hall’s _The Well of Loneliness_ (the sum total of whose sexual content is a line saying “And that night they were not divided”) - Leslie Feinberg’s _Stone Butch Blues_ - Audre Lorde’s _Zami: A New Spelling of My Name_ - Kate Bornstein’s _Gender Outlaw_ - _The Advocate College Guide for LGBT Students_ - Louis-Georges Tin’s _The Dictionary of Homophobia_ - E M Forster’s _Maurice_ - Alex Sanchez’s _Rainbow Boys_ (young adult) Do I seriously have to elaborate on how moronic and offensive it is to define any LGBT content as “adult,” or to remove it from all best-seller lists? And yet, as of time of writing, they had a page rank for [Playboy: The Complete Centerfolds](http://www.amazon.com/Playboy-Complete-Centerfolds-Chronicle-Books/dp/0811860914). I already far preferred to shop from independent bookstores, especially for LGBT items, but Amazon isn’t getting another dime of this queer’s money until they reverse this idiotic policy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/2 "2009-04-12T16:28:18Z")
Wow. If this is true, it’s horrifying. I got pissed enough when a local lesbian-owned bookstore hid Jeanette Winterson’s books in the LGBT fiction shelves instead of putting them out with the rest of the fiction; this is so much worse. The links only go to livejournals, though; I’d like to see independent verification. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/3 "2009-04-12T16:32:24Z")
Just checked, and sure enough [Oranges are not the Only Fruit](http://www.amazon.com/Oranges-Are-Not-Only-Fruit/dp/0802135161/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239553767&sr=1-1) lacks a rank, wherea a book surely more squiggy, [Perdido Street Station](http://www.amazon.com/Perdido-Street-Station-China-Mieville/dp/0345459407/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239553858&sr=8-1), has one (this was chosen at random). Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/4 "2009-04-12T16:42:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The links only go to livejournals, though; I’d like to see independent verification. The first link contains a screen shot of a gay author’s Amazon support ticket about the removal of his page ranking, fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/5 "2009-04-12T16:43:29Z")
Eh? For [Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit](http://www.amazon.com/Oranges-Only-Fruit-Bloomsbury-classics/dp/0747510431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239553892&sr=8-1), I found: [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) Sales Rank: #622,191 in Books (See Bestsellers in Books) Popular in this category: (What’s this?) #18 in Books \> Literature & Fiction \> Authors, A-Z \> ( W ) \> Winterson, Jeanette Are we looking at different Amazons? Looking further: [Giovanni’s Room](http://www.amazon.com/Giovannis-Room-James-Baldwin/dp/0385334583/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239554230&sr=1-1) by itself has no sales rank, but it is included in an [anthology that does](http://www.amazon.com/James-Baldwin-Stories-Mountain-Giovannis/dp/1883011515/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239554230&sr=1-2). Similarly, the first choice in the Amazon search for The Well of Loneliness [has no sales rank](http://www.amazon.com/Well-Loneliness-Classic-Lesbian-Fiction/dp/0385416091/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239554349&sr=1-1), but [subsequent](http://www.amazon.com/WELL-LONELINESS-Radclyffe-Hall/dp/B001A8WTGY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239554349&sr=1-2) [entries](http://www.amazon.com/The-Well-of-Loneliness/dp/0965072290/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239554349&sr=1-3)do. Why can’t they combine all ranks of a book? Or is it supposed to be significant to a book’s popularity whether it’s purchased most often in hardcover, trade, paperback, audiobook, or Kindle? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/6 "2009-04-12T17:00:15Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > Why can’t they combine all ranks of a book? Or is it supposed to be significant to a book’s popularity whether it’s purchased most often in hardcover, trade, paperback, audiobook, or Kindle? One of the things that was pointed out is that it seems to be very inconsistent for each book, over various editions. And it keeps vaccilating: when I looked up OANTOF I found one with a page rank, but now _neither_ **Left Hand** ’s nor **Ninja** ’s links display one. ETA: and now it seems to be back in **Ninja** ’s link. Still gone in **Left Hand** ’s, though. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/7 "2009-04-12T17:04:46Z")
I was able to find sales rankings for [Maurice](http://www.amazon.com/Maurice-E-M-Forster/dp/0848804902/ref=ed_oe_h) and [Stone Butch Blues](http://www.amazon.com/Stone-Butch-Blues-Leslie-Feinberg/dp/B001V770KE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239555723&sr=8-1) too. Not all version of the books have sales rankings. Not sure why some versions do and some don’t, or if this was an oversight on the part of the censorship effort, or what. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/8 "2009-04-12T17:14:50Z")
A website named after a group of women who took on traditional male roles is now discriminating against various who don’t take on conservative gender roles. I wonder if they’re gonna delist their whole website. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/9 "2009-04-12T18:39:36Z")
My guess is that they’re trying to get rid of "adult’ products from generic listings, but that whoever wrote their algorithms for doing so is completely incompetent and probably a bit of a heterosexist if not outright homophobe. The fact that it’s changing so much–on an Easter, no less-suggests that someone realizes this is unacceptable and is fiddling with the algorithm now to fix it. If these books remain delisted or weirdly listed by, say, next Friday, I’ll be a lot more irritated. Right now it looks like a comedy of errors, coupled with one or two morons. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/10 "2009-04-12T18:56:25Z")
You’re Canadian—is there a difference in how the American and Canadian Amazons are doing this? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/11 "2009-04-12T19:15:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > You’re Canadian—is there a difference in how the American and Canadian Amazons are doing this? A spot check shows that a number of LGBT books on amazon.ca have no sales rankings. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/12 "2009-04-12T19:35:59Z")
Smart Bitches is on the case, with an effort to Google Bomb Amazon. They’ve created a new definition for [Amazon Rank](http://www.smartbitchestrashybooks.com/amazonrank/). What the hell are they [Amazon] thinking? I know nothing of computers and hacking, but this decision to selectively strip sales ranks seems too absolutely bone-headed to have been made by the people who run Amazon. Maybe they got hacked or something? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/13 "2009-04-12T19:45:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Wow. If this is true, it’s horrifying. Horryifying? _Horrifying?_ Come on, **LHoD** , you aren’t normally given to such histrionics. Someone climbing in your bedroom window at night, wearing a hockey mask and wielding a chainsaw, is horrifying. This is a situation that is surprising and unfair, and to some, outrageous, but it hardly rises to the level of horror. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/14 "2009-04-12T19:49:40Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > What the hell are they [Amazon] thinking? I know nothing of computers and hacking, but this decision to selectively strip sales ranks seems too absolutely bone-headed to have been made by the people who run Amazon. Maybe they got hacked or something? My initial guess would be that maybe they just have an automatic acceptance if someone complains - if anyone sends in a complaint, it’s simply taken off the rankings, which would explain to an extent the odd selection. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/15 "2009-04-13T01:00:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Horryifying? _Horrifying?_ > > Come on, **LHoD** , you aren’t normally given to such histrionics. Someone climbing in your bedroom window at night, wearing a hockey mask and wielding a chainsaw, is horrifying. This is a situation that is surprising and unfair, and to some, outrageous, but it hardly rises to the level of horror. You’re wrong. I’d far rather be tortured to death by a chainsaw wielding maniac that live in a world in which Amazon removes the rankings from LGBT books. If you wouldn’t, that just proves what a bigot you are. And, like all bigots, totally devoid of an ability to recognize deliberate hyperbole or humor. Which I find horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/16 "2009-04-13T01:05:02Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > My initial guess would be that maybe they just have an automatic acceptance if someone complains - if anyone sends in a complaint, it’s simply taken off the rankings, which would explain to an extent the odd selection. I dunno. That’s possible, but I have a hard time believing Oranges are not the only fruit would warrant a complaint. It’s a pretty innocuous book, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/17 "2009-04-13T02:02:20Z")
I did see some speculation that it’s a deliberate attack on LGBT books by an outside agency using Amazon’s complaint mechanism (which I’m not familiar with), which would explain the spotty coverage. That would be one possible explanation as to why this is going on over Easter weekend: to maximize corporate response time. If that’s so, I’m going to assume that there will be an extremely embarrassed and contrite press release by Tuesday at the latest, followed by an immediate undo and complete overhaul of this putative “adult” ranking (along the lines of Google Safe Search – although if they insist on allowing the likes of _Heather Has Two Mommies_ and _Hello, Cruel World_ to go under “adult,” stay tuned for Amazon!Fail Part Deux.) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/18 "2009-04-13T02:08:56Z")
Someone else pointed out that the Kindle versions of these same books are not generally being affected. What that seems to be causing is that a search for the title may result in the Kindle version appearing first, followed by a half-dozen listings of flotsam, and then maybe the paper version at the end. It took me a couple of tries to find the listing for _[Hello, Cruel World](http://www.amazon.com/Hello-Cruel-World-Alternatives-Suicide/dp/1583227202/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239588265&sr=1-3)_ – a search for “hello cruel world” started with the Kindle edition, then went through seven or eight unrelated items, and concluded with two out-of-print versions. I had to find the above version by clicking on the author name. It certainly seems that sales rank affects search results, which I find especially scary. FWIW, a search for “Homosexuality” currently gives as its first result _A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality_. Barf. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/19 "2009-04-13T02:10:14Z")
I actually came here to vent about the viral outrage aspect of it. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853/20 "2009-04-13T02:27:16Z")
Is it possible Jeff Bezos has been Saved? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-com-removes-queer-and-trans-books-from-bestseller-lists/492853.md?page=2)