# Amazon Lord of the Rings series; The Rings of Power **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, amazon-prime, tv-shows-scripted\ **Created:** [March 3, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497 "2019-03-03T20:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/462 "2022-09-07T17:12:35Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky were all forged later and after Annatar left. My understanding is that Celebrimbor forged those without the assistance of Annatar, and so they didn’t have whatever enchantment or working that enslaved the other rings to the One Ring. That is why they are still in the possession and use of the Free Peoples during the War of the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/463 "2022-09-07T17:14:08Z")
That is correct. But they weren’t safe to use if Sauron had control of the One Ring. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/464 "2022-09-07T17:22:09Z")
Which was kinda my impression, which is why it makes more sense for Celebrimbor to be motivated by Annatar, which would mean that the Man From the Sky couldn’t be Suaran without some skipping around on the chronology. Personally, I _liked_ the idea that it was Gandalf, and in my ignorance, pretty much assumed it was. It “explains” why he had a fondness for the Hobbits, who most other races dismissed as children at best, and he is acting somewhat similarly confused as he was when he returned as Gandalf the White. This was my headcanon all the way up until the fireflies died, which _could_ have been an accident, but certainly seemed to have a bit of an ominous and evil vibe, which made me question that conclusion. _Now_ I know that, according to the timeline, it couldn’t be Gandalf, but at the same time, it really can’t be _any_ of the characters that we know, as it violates something that is canon about them. So, either this is an entirely new character, which is fine, but a bit disappointing, or someone’s canon is being violated, or the writers are playing fast and loose with chronology. Maybe this is a “What if…?” series, where Gandalf was sent to Middle-Earth a few thousand years early, completely changing the way history unfolds. I wouldn’t have a problem with that, I care more for acting, writing, and a cohesive self contained plot than I do adherence to lore, so as long as they do that, they can leave Tolkien spinning in his grave over the changes made. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/465 "2022-09-07T18:55:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > they can leave Tolkien spinning in his grave over the changes made. Considering how often Tolkien himself changed the lore, I don’t think he’d mind others doing it as well. After all, one of the hallmarks of legendariums is the wide variation in details and focus. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/466 "2022-09-07T19:23:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Which was kinda my impression, which is why it makes more sense for Celebrimbor to be motivated by Annatar, which would mean that the Man From the Sky couldn’t be Suaran without some skipping around on the chronology. “The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.” I prefer my theory - that the rings were Celebrimbor’s idea that Sauron perverted to his own ends; that they were supposed to make the world better, but instead, thanks to his corruption, they almost destroyed it. It makes for a good tragic story. Is there anything in the lore that contradicts this? ---
**Author:** ![DocFumblerooski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/docfumblerooski/32/11863_2.png) [@DocFumblerooski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocFumblerooski)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/467 "2022-09-07T19:34:37Z")
Tolkien’s goal was to create a modern-day mythology. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/468 "2022-09-07T19:42:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They have the rights to the LOTR trilogy, including the appendices. Checking out the first appendix, it says it contains a synopsis of _The Silmarillion_. I wonder if that opens up there use of it as a source? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > One of my biggest annoyances with The Witcher was how they did that. Yes, me too. I didn’t even know it was jumping around until somebody asked about it in the thread here. Pissed me off a bit since all they had to do was put place/time headers whenever they switched. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/469 "2022-09-07T19:54:19Z")
He should, but he is an elf, and the Stranger was NOT an elf. The two Blue Wizards were nigh joined at the hip, so no. > [@Atamasama](#): > > I did like how Jackson elevated Arwen’s role in the movies, because he made her a real character with impact and not just “Strider’s girlfriend”, but he did so at the expense of Glorfindel. I concur. Arwen being Kick-ass helped a lot. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > That has to be rough to mine for characters and plots. Not at all. The appendices are more or less a complete history. > [@DocFumblerooski](#): > > Amazon has the rights to the LOTRs so the Second Age is limited to the appendixes in the Return of the King. I shake my head at the people who want to rail against this series because … (cue drumroll)… it’s not “Tolkien Canon” and—gasp—they include characters with different skin-colors!!! Good point, and at least one Hobbit sub-race was dark skinned. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/470 "2022-09-07T20:45:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > “The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.” “The Shadow” is Morgoth/Melkor. Not Sauron. Sauron as the Maia Mairon was a student of Aule and was a great craftsman. Don’t forget, he forged the One Ring completely on his own. In effect, Sauron himself is an example of your quote in the sense that Morgoth could not create, but instead seduced a Maia into becoming his servant. Sauron himself was one of those things that was not created, but instead changed into what Morgoth wanted. That doesn’t mean Sauron himself lacked the ability to create things. On the contrary, I think the reason why he was given the backstory he had was just to show how he was able to come up with the Rings and how to forge them. Here is my own theory, knowing how Sauron operated. Rather than being Celebrimbor’s idea, the Rings were Sauron’s idea, but he made Celebrimbor **think** it was his idea. That’s the kind of person Sauron was. And by doing so, his plan could be done with no suspicion from Celebrimbor. Because who would be suspicious of a plan he thought he’d come up with himself? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/471 "2022-09-07T21:15:20Z")
I guess we’ll see. My point is, there’s no reason why the Stranger _can’t_ be Sauron - and every storytelling instinct in my body screams that he is. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/472 "2022-09-07T21:40:16Z")
Is there any official word on how many seasons are planned? I think I remember seeing the budget for five seasons was approved - is that confirmed? And is the scope known? Will it cover through the end of the Second Age, into some of the Third, up to _The Hobbit_? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/473 "2022-09-07T21:41:35Z")
Everything I’ve read said a 5 season commitment. I thought the scope was just 2nd age, but I’m not as sure on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/474 "2022-09-07T22:26:56Z")
I agree that he likely is Sauron, but wasn’t he already around? Why meteor in like that? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/475 "2022-09-07T22:29:25Z")
He returned by around 400 Second Age. Maybe as late as 600. So if the Stranger is Sauron, it is a major departure. But I think no matter who it turns out to be, it is a major departure. But not a show/story breaking one. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/476 "2022-09-07T22:29:40Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I agree that he likely is Sauron, but wasn’t he already around? Why meteor in like that? Maybe in order to convince the elves that he’s a (good) maia. Or maybe the reason Galadriel couldn’t find him is that he was hiding somewhere that’s only accessible by meteor? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/477 "2022-09-07T23:48:08Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I think no matter who it turns out to be, it is a major departure. > > But not a show/story breaking one. I’m still not convinced it was Sauron. For such a departure from, if I may so call it, the usual way of doing things in Middle Earth, it needs to be someone completely unexpected (to us, I mean). It also needs to be someone important to the story, but possibly in a way that is not immediately obvious. In any case, we’re talking about it, and the mystery is helping to keep our interest in spite of some writing flaws; I just hope it’s not a gimmick for that purpose only. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/478 "2022-09-08T00:12:27Z")
Something we need to keep in mind is that the showrunners need to fill 5 seasons, about 40-50 hours, with compelling narratives and characters, with satisfying arcs and interesting twists that periodically spike to whet the appetite for the next season. So it would make sense for the stranger to be Sauron, having lost his memory in the violent transport to Middle Earth. So that let’s him start out as a sympathetic companion to the Hobbits as they migrate, slowly revealing he has powers he doesn’t know about, climaxing in the season one finale with a heel turn into the evil lord he really is, causing everyone to breathlessly await the next episode… However, since I don’t really care whether the show sticks to any canon, I hope it’s Gandalf (with the season finale reveal of that). The rending of garments and gnashing of teeth over _that_ would double the fun… ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/479 "2022-09-08T01:36:01Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > violent transport to Middle Earth From where? He never left Middle Earth. After the destruction of Morgoth he was supposed to return to Valinor for judgment, but never did. He spent 500 years of the second age in hiding somewhere in ME, and then started making trouble in a quiet, back-country sort of way. By 1000 SA he was preparing Mordor as a home base and started building Barad-dur.\* I think enough of that is in the LotR appendices that it would be difficult to justify something so very different as him being in some _other_ place that would require him to return in a meteor. \*This is already a contradiction to the show, if that valley being patrolled by elves in the first episode (around 1600 SA I think is the consensus) was supposed to be proto-Mordor, just starting to be converted for Sauron’s use. So maybe that whole thing was something else going on. I can’t think of any known character whose arrival in that manner would make sense. So either it’s a completely new character (which could be interesting and plausible, or otherwise) or it’s a wide deviation from our understanding of the basic story. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/480 "2022-09-08T05:03:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I guess we’ll see. My point is, there’s no reason why the Stranger _can’t_ be Sauron - and every storytelling instinct in my body screams that he is. It’s the complete opposite, for me. Having it be Sauron would need some major dramatic contortions to keep the character intact—Sauron’s always been portrayed as imposing, either terrible or beautiful, as Annatar. I’m not sure how to get there from this bumbling, confused being—can we really look at [this figure](https://youtu.be/VkIoFgFhTlo?t=114) and go, hey look, it’s the guy who once wolfed down some snails from a sympathetic hobbit? I’m not sure how to make that sort of arc work, without having it be one of corruption—someone with the potential of darkness being overcome by it. But Sauron’s already full-on committed to large-scale evil at this point. This confused, raggedy portrayal, to me, seems much more like a good guy who’s temporarily lost themselves (this losing themselves would otherwise be a major marr on Sauron’s power: it would tell the viewer, by way of introduction—chronologically—that he _can_ be brought down to that sort of level), and needs to regain their power and identity. From the way he was introduced, I initially thought of Radagast—going purely by his on-screen portrayal, where he was still, well, slightly off, but in tune with nature in a special way. He could be trying, but failing so far (hence, the death of the fireflies), to find that sort of communion. But well, I guess we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/481 "2022-09-08T05:03:38Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > From where? He never left Middle Earth It isn’t necessary that the meteor arrived from outside Middle-earth , it might be the magic equivalent of a ICBM. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > if that valley being patrolled by elves in the first episode (around 1600 SA I think is the consensus) was supposed to be proto-Mordor I didn’t get that impression - it was called Mordor before Sauron settled there, IIRC. So not a fertile valley. At least, Orodruin should already be there, and we haven’t seen an isolated volcano. . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497.md?page=25)