# Amazon Lord of the Rings series; The Rings of Power **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, amazon-prime, tv-shows-scripted\ **Created:** [March 3, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497 "2019-03-03T20:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1203 "2022-10-15T06:05:31Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Or… Maybe **that’s** when he arrives as Annatar. And if Galadriel isn’t around to raise the alarm, Celebrimbor goes along with it. That seems pretty likely. I’m by no means an expert on the backstory, but as far as I know the Three Rings are not completely free of Sauron’s influence. They don’t corrupt the wearer like the others, but they are bound to the One Ring. Ok, in the books they were made in secret, and here we have Sauron’s involvement, but it was only indirect. There is some weak binding to Sauron, but the main point is to sell Celebrimbor on the idea of rings of power. Later, we’ll see Annatar arrive, and perhaps even Galadriel will be fooled, or she isn’t there, or her hatred blinds her to being deceived yet again. Annatar can point out how much good the Three Rings are doing for the elves (and rightly so), and that they can end conflict in Middle Earth by making more of them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1204 "2022-10-15T06:08:23Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > That seems pretty likely. I’m by no means an expert on the backstory, but as far as I know the Three Rings are not completely free of Sauron’s influence. They don’t corrupt the wearer like the others, but they are bound to the One Ring. Ok, in the books they were made in secret, and here we have Sauron’s involvement, but it was only indirect. There is some weak binding to Sauron, but the main point is to sell Celebrimbor on the idea of rings of power. IIRC, the moment Sauron first puts on the One Ring, the bearers of the elven rings - Gil-Galad, Cirdan, and Galadriel - instantly sensed that they had been deceived and took their rings off because they dared not use them while Sauron controlled the One. Once he was defeated at the end of the Second Age, it was safe for them to use their rings again until the destruction of the One Ring made them powerless. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1205 "2022-10-15T06:14:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The only time Tolkien ever describes them in plural is when they battle Ungoliant to defend Melkor from her. No, there were a few other occasions but only in the First Age. Fëanor was set upon by multiple balrogs, as was his son Maedhros. There were also mentioned in the plural in several major First Age military campaigns, including the Fall of Gondolin when at least five were slain (four by Ecthelion, one by Glorfindel). However they were mostly exterminated at the end of the First and not mentioned at all in the Second. But who knows in this re-imagining. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1206 "2022-10-15T06:15:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > one unassuming outsider showing up out of nowhere and being an expert in magic ringmaking is one thing, but two of them? Doesn’t have to be an expert ringmaker–Celebrimbor already knows the trick, now. Annatar just has to convince the elves to make more rings–maybe as an exchange with the dwarves for more mithril. Perhaps he has other means of corrupting the new rings than direct involvement in their creation. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1207 "2022-10-15T06:25:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > As an aside, I smiled a little when Halbrand mentioned that “the master I apprenticed under” had spoken flatteringly of Celebrimbor, considering that he was probably talking about Morgoth himself. The devil apparently knows quality craftsmanship when he sees it. Not Morgoth. Aule. Mairon the Maia was a vassal of Aule, the smith of the Valar. He taught Mairon how to forge. Mairon was later corrupted by Melkor, becoming his spy, then even later as Sauron he served Morgoth as his main lieutenant. So he was saying that Aule spoke highly of Celebrimbor. Maybe that was a half-truth, and he was talking about Celebrimbor’s grandfather Feanor who forged the Silmarils. I’m sure Aule would have been impressed by that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1208 "2022-10-15T06:32:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In this timeline, nobody - Sauron included - knew about mithril and its unique properties until fairly recently. Perhaps he saw an opportunity to create something greater than he could make on his own in the hopes that he could gain control over it later. Perhaps he’s being pragmatic in that he knows the elves will retreat for Valinor - where they’ll be beyond his reach forever - unless they make some kind of breakthrough, and he wants their help to perfect his ringcraft. I’m just spitballing here with what we’ve been given. We don’t really know how long they spent working on the rings, or what they did during that time. They may have made some “prototypes” out of lesser materials, and those are what Sauron took with him and passed out to the Dwarves and Men. If he took a bit of the mithril with him as well to forge the One Ring, that could explain why it has power over the Elves’, since they came from the same ore. As far as discrepancies with the lore, we have at this time only heard the Elves’ side of the story. They may not want to admit the desperate situation they were in, nor how they let some random guy come in and teach them how to smith. No, no, it was the Master Deceiver, really, it was all his idea. Part of his nefarious plan. So far, this has really been Sauron’s story, certainly the character with the most development, and while I don’t know that I would want a series that focused entirely on him, it could be interesting to see events from his perspective. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1209 "2022-10-15T09:01:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > He really would have been happiest to just stay living life as a smith in Numenor if she hadn’t pushed him. No. He was going to work his way up the guild to a position of power. It’s what he does. > [@DSeid](#): > > He really was seeing himself as potentially bound to the light with her and his return to darkness could have potentially been avoided if Galadriel had believed his current good intent? No. This is just his bullshit attempt to tempt her. He is Satan in this situation, and she was right to reject him. > [@Smapti](#): > > there wasn’t any indication that these horses were the Shadowfaxes of their day Actually, they are special horses, what with the bonding and the sensing distress and all, I’ll give them a pass on this. > [@Smapti](#): > > Halbrand should have been dead of his infected stomach wound by the time they got there - and just because he’s a Maia doesn’t mean his physical form can’t be killed, as Grima Wormtongue could tell you. Murdered outright vs staying alive from wound are not the same thing. Also, Saruman was embodied as an old man, Sauron as a fit young one. Not equivalent in healing. Also, Sauron is more powerful than Saruman anyway, _especially_ before pouring power into the One Ring. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1210 "2022-10-15T10:24:20Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > So… No Annatar? There was a “wink” moment where he insisted that his advice was a “gift”, as Annatar was the “Lord of Gifts”. But he wasn’t using the proper name or appearance (he should have been “fair” and “angelic”, not looking like a scruffy refugee). He’s a pretty good looking guy, our Halbrand. I’m happy with that part. And i liked his reference to gifts. That was certainly a nod to fans. > [@Atamasama](#): > > So now I wonder if Sauron is going to forge the others on his own now? Maybe in Numenor? Maybe. My guess is that they will next do a chunk that does follow the books. That is > **potential spoilers from book** > > Ar-Pharazon will force Miriel to marry him when she returns, and seize power of Numenor. > Halbrand will will go to Mordor (and fight Adar, i guess). > Numenor, under Ar-Pharazon, will battle him, win, and take him prisoner. > There, he will call himself Annatar, and win the trust of the Numenoreans. > Off-canon, he will play to their jealousy of the elves, and convince them to forge the nine rings to be as good as the elves. > Dunno where the dwarves and their rings come in > Then he will flee back to Mordor, and forge the one ring in the volcano. > Isuldur will kill him, cut the ring from his finger, and drown in the Anduin. > And in the ending credits, we will see a harfoot, proto-Gollum, find the one ring. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1211 "2022-10-15T11:09:20Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > He has probably been planning everything for centuries Master deceiver and planner I can maybe accept. Master controller of events he could not predict? How did he plan that Galadriel would be there in the ocean to “rescue”? To be found at the opportune moment by a Numenor ship? As viewers we saw him unobserved by others initially putting down his sack with the crest and then his doubled back having changed his mind. Not the action of someone following through on a plan centuries in the making. Even the fight after stealing the smith badge … his reactions not in view of others were inconsistent with this all being part of a plan, more consistent with out of his control. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1212 "2022-10-15T12:20:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’d be happy if it were episode 8 of 12, not the finale. Yeah, I could see that. This could have been a mid-season finale. I am hearing 2024 as the time for the next episode. If I were recommending things to show-creators and networks, it would be: - make season 1 MORE than just big buildup. - Churn out season 2 within 1 year of the first season. People need to remember! Shadow and Bone has been a long time since its first season and I feel it is doomed when S2 drops and no one remembers. Game of Thrones did annual seasons most of its run. > [@Smapti](#): > > In this timeline, nobody - Sauron included - knew about mithril and its unique properties until fairly recently. Hey, so are they saying mithril can extend life in addition to just being super strong? That leaf de-aged when mithril, I think, touched it. If that is the case, was that always the case? I know Bilbo’s mithril vest was an expensive and valuable object, but if it also can de-age you, it was probably worth _more_ than 1/14 the entire treasure under the mountain considering it was also inpenetrable and an entire vest made of the stuff. I thought the Arkenstone was valuable, but a mithril vest was probably better than that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1213 "2022-10-15T12:33:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Master deceiver and planner I can maybe accept. Master controller of events he could not predict? I think he really did plan on laying low for a while, repentant out of fear if nothing else. He probably would have eventually given into that evil itch, and started acquiring power for evil purposes, but that may not have been for centuries or even millenia. But Galadriel tempted him. She vouched for him as king of the Southlands, giving him power over men, and Adar was kind enough to conquer Mordor for him and to bring him an Orc army. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1214 "2022-10-15T12:39:12Z")
I agree. I don’t think he planned everything from the start. He had some plan to make a comeback, but not necessarily this particular one. I think he was being truthful when he said he had not planned to leave Numenor. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1215 "2022-10-15T12:39:25Z")
So - was Hallbrand being on the raft from his attempt to get to Numenor? ---
**Author:** ![Unforgiven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7bcc69/32.png) [@Unforgiven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unforgiven)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1216 "2022-10-15T13:45:58Z")
A couple of points on Halbrand: 1. I truly believe he wanted to stay in Numenor. After all, Numenor is the strongest power east of Valinor in the world. 2. I had heard speculation that he might be Sauron, but I didn’t believe it until right before he decided to leave Numenor. If you recall, he finished a sword just prior, which was immaculate. Given the Southron’s technology, it was incredulous to think he had the level of skill for a sword of that caliber from his own past knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1217 "2022-10-15T13:49:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I smiled a little when Halbrand mentioned that “the master I apprenticed under” had spoken flatteringly of Celebrimbor, considering that he was probably talking about Morgoth himself. Possibly Aulë? ETA - I see someone else suggested this, but they left off the umlaut so I didn’t find their post. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1218 "2022-10-15T13:51:02Z")
Far more likely. Though we don’t know if Celebrimbor was born in Middle Earth or Valinor. And of course the show-runners would make up their own birthplace anyway. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1219 "2022-10-15T13:56:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Though we don’t know if Celebrimbor was born in Middle Earth or Valinor. He was [born in Valinor.](https://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/90019021356/do-you-think-celebrimbor-was-born-in-valinor-or) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1220 "2022-10-15T14:01:19Z")
All along, _Rings of Power_ has been reminding me of _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_: A much-anticipated big-budget, big-deal return to a world/franchise that many of us love, that ended up looking good but being slow and draggy and not nearly as much fun to watch as it should have been. Perhaps Season 2 could turn out to be the “Wrath of Khan” of the series? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1221 "2022-10-15T14:02:09Z")
Cool, I don’t remember that line at all. So he almost surely spent some time in Aulë’s hall then. In my edition it is on Page 317 of Footnote 7 of The People of Middle-Earth (Volume XII of the History of Middle-Earth) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1222 "2022-10-15T14:03:01Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > Did I miss something or were Bronwyn and Arondir not in this episode? > > They were not. I’m guessing we’ll get to them and Isildur next season. Or maybe not? They might just be season-one characters. Bringing in new people would be a good way to keep things fresh and organic. So Adar and Sauron really were adversaries? Interesting. Thinking about the other rings-it could be he’s already made them as others have said. He didn’t have mithril then, of course, and had to re-learn things to use it and appear “innocent” to Celebrimbor. The dwarf-rings probably wouldn’t have been made of it, since I’m guessing King Durin kept it a close secret. And rings would be easy to conceal on, say, a boat trip to Middle-Earth. Is Pharazon’s son anyone in the lore? Might he be a future Ring-wraith? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497.md?page=62)