# Amazon Lord of the Rings series; The Rings of Power **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, amazon-prime, tv-shows-scripted\ **Created:** [March 3, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497 "2019-03-03T20:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1463 "2022-10-27T14:54:19Z")
I do. The point is there were many months of hate aimed at the show before one episode aired. Do you agree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1464 "2022-10-27T14:57:16Z")
I agree. 5/10s are only for the most outstanding shows which are few. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1465 "2022-10-27T14:59:39Z")
Amazon doesn’t care how much people liked it. Well, not much. Mostly what they care about is how many people watch it, and whether that helps their “Prime” product. But there is one viewer whose opinion I’m sure they care deeply about: Jeff Bezos. This seems to have been, at least in part, a vanity project for Bezos, who dumped a lot of money into it because he could. If he liked it, I expect they will continue, unless it was a massive flop – and it wasn’t. If he was disappointed, I expect they will pull the plug, unless it was a significant financial win. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1466 "2022-10-27T15:01:49Z")
I am no fan of Bezos but I love that he saved “The Expanse”. I like that he got this done too. If I had $100 billion I’d probably fund some vanity TV shows I’d like to see. Why have that kind of money if you don’t use it for something? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1467 "2022-10-27T15:08:15Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > And not a single 5\* vote. Only truly exceptional works would get a 5 from me - I could think of only a handful of films and only 2 TV series I’d give a 5 to - no-one is arguing that it was truly exceptional, even those of us that liked it a lot. Just good. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1468 "2022-10-27T15:30:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You have good ears to pick up the private conversations of millions of people talking to their friends. I don’t claim to know the minds of people I’ve never met. I do know the conversations and polls that have taken place here and elsewhere, the discussions I’ve had with with friends and colleagues, the reviews and articles online etc. From that (which the best any of us can do) I’m happy in my assessment that “mixed at best” is a fair representation of the general reception. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You won’t. What you will get is their response to their own data, which will be to either continue the show or to cancel it. My point is that they have far better data to tell if it’s a good investment than you or I do. agreed. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, as a matter of fact, there is a lot of positive reviews as well, but since you have focused largely on how bad this show was, the whining is what is relevant to your point. My own opinion is that it is a bad show but I’ve had no problem accepting that a lot of people like it, I do supect that not enough people like it enough to please Amazon, but that remains to be seen. As you say, they have the data that matters to them. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > However, I do think that the people who had reasons to hate it, for whatever reasons, are the most vocal, so someone just naively browsing anonymous internet review sites may get a different impression of viewer response than someone who actually has access to viewer data. OK, that’s true, which is why I removed all negative reviews from my consideration of the Metacritic scores. Do you think they might hold any clue as how the series was recieved in general? Are they all completely pointless and irrelevant? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1469 "2022-10-27T15:40:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do. The point is there were many months of hate aimed at the show before one episode aired. > > Do you agree with that? honestly? I don’t know. If you say it is the case then fine. I don’t inhabit the parts of the internet where I’d be exposed to that. Rabid fans are rabid. I’m sure that’s the case for many well loved tales. I do know there was a similar campaign against the Peter Jackson films but that doesn’t seem to have skewed the audience or critical review figures away from (what I believe to be) a fair representarion of their worth. Plenty of high volume abuse, but still pretty much universal critical and audience adulation. And remember, when I point to the metacritic scores I’m removing all negative scores and only concentrating on mixed and positive dating from the time of release. You seemed to suggest that I was including reviews from pre-release. Do you accept now that that isn’t the case? If so, do you think that critics scores and mixed/negative ratio has anything to say about the general audience and critical reception? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1470 "2022-10-27T15:41:10Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > People are definitely watching it. Based on the article below, it’s not a home run, but it’s at least a double. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Amazon doesn’t care how much people liked it. Well, not much. Mostly what they care about is how many people watch it, and whether that helps their “Prime” product. > > But there is one viewer whose opinion I’m sure they care deeply about: Jeff Bezos. This seems to have been, at least in part, a vanity project for Bezos @puzzlegal’s assertion’s accuracy seems to be the crux. This is a very expensive project. From the business side perspective “a double” (if one assumes that is true) would not be enough, numbers of subscribers watching wouldn’t be enough: the goal with that much is to keep subscribers feeling like _this_ service is a “must have” in the universe of streaming products … a bit more complicated for Amazon than say for Netflix in that for Amazon the streaming is part of a bigger package, and not the core product, but still the same essential thought. “Does it anchor customers to us?” It may be that many giving it a 4 is a poorer outcome than equal numbers giving it 3 and 5, if that makes sense. I’d WAG that Bezos cares about more than whether or not _he_ liked it, and that anything less than a home run reception will result in some recalibration. Too much reputation (even more than dollars) invested to pull a plug. But “okay” would not be okay. NO question that they have data we do not have, but hard to imagine any demographic giving this lots of “orgasmic” five of fives. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1471 "2022-10-27T15:42:29Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > FWIW Dept., Dope isn’t a definitive sample and other caveats, etc. > > [Rings of Power Poll](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polls-only-no-discussion/953642/2134) > > 45 votes. > > And not a single 5\* vote. so a mixed response then? (other than no-one thought it worthy of the highest marks) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1472 "2022-10-27T15:46:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > still the same essential thought. “Does it anchor customers to us?” It may be that many giving it a 4 is a poorer outcome than equal numbers giving it 3 and 5, if that makes sense. The questions may also be “in its current form, is the pull of a season 2 enough to stop a drift of customers away from us?, is the buzz for this show enough to bring new customers to us?” But yes, it may indeed be a vanity project for Jeff, if that’s the case then perhaps that will outweigh any consideration of change and the status quo remains. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1473 "2022-10-27T16:05:06Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t know. If you say it is the case then fine. I don’t inhabit the parts of the internet where I’d be exposed to that. Parts like the BBC or Los Angeles Times? - [‘The history of fantasy is racialized’: Lord of the Rings series sparks debate over race](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/feb/20/lord-of-the-rings-amazon-series-race) - [Many predicted Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ prequel would be a disaster. It isn’t](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2022-08-31/lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-review-amazon-prime-video) From the LA Times article: > To judge by the vlogosphere, “force for evil” is the predominant view. Titles of videos up on YouTube include “The Rings of Power is D.O.A.,” “Why Everyone Hates The Rings of Power … Already,” “The Rings of Power Is Going to Suck,” “How ‘The Rings of Power’ Should Have Been Written” and “Rings of Power is a PARODY of ‘Lord of the Rings,’” all based on a smidgen of evidence. And it has been discussed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1474 "2022-10-27T16:27:00Z")
But also note these comments in that same article: > [@](#): > > neither a disaster nor a triumph, merely television of a visibly expensive, fitfully inspired sort. … > … functions as a kind of imaginary travelogue … > … With the price tag for five seasons expected to reach $1 billion (the rights alone cost $250 million), it‘s predicted to be the most expensive television series ever. It’s true that Jeff Bezos could pay for the whole thing out of his own pocket without the slightest dent in his lifestyle, but it’s safe to assume Amazon is not in this to lose money, and in order to make back its nut— or simply not be deemed a failure — “The Rings of Power” is going to have to attract not only fans but people who have never read the books or even seen the movies. … So is a fitfully inspired, visibly expensive, imaginary travelogue, neither disaster nor triumph, enough to “make back its nut”? I have no insider information but I’d bet on some creative shake up. Maybe less emphasis on the travelogue and more on tight story telling and characters we actually care about? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1475 "2022-10-27T16:59:39Z")
I think that a lot of the first season was setting up the setting and characters, putting them in the right places, and introducing the audience to them. There’s a whole lot of ground to cover before Sauron gets his finger chopped off, technically a couple thousand years worth of ground. I suspect that the next season will be able to have more plot, more development, and more action, since it was set up in this one. Woulda been nice, I suppose, if they had a couple more episodes to get to the payoff, especially since it will be so long until the next season, but it is what it is. I expect the next season to be substantially different from the first, but not because of a creative shake-up, but for the same reason that the second chapter of a book is different from the first. > [@DSeid](#): > > characters we actually care about? That’s a tough one, as, just in this thread, there is considerable disagreement. Some love particular characters, and some loathe those same. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1476 "2022-10-27T17:16:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Parts like the BBC or Los Angeles Times? No, I don’t read the LA times and though I do read the BBC, that article isn’t from the BBC. I’m happy to concede that the issue was raised. I never suggested otherwise, just that the original claim of “many months of hate” was not something that I personally experienced and so couldn’t comment on. I tend not to read articles about series I’m going to watch. I prefer to avoid any prejudgement or spoilers. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1477 "2022-10-27T17:18:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I have no insider information but I’d bet on some creative shake up. Maybe less emphasis on the travelogue and more on tight story telling and characters we actually care about? That would be my own preference, I mentioned upthread that the tighter, more focussed story of TLOTR trilogy achieved much more by focussing on much less. (and the trilogy covered the same time span as this first full ROP season) ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1478 "2022-10-27T17:48:43Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That would be my own preference, I mentioned upthread that the tighter, more focussed story of TLOTR trilogy achieved much more by focussing on much less. (and the trilogy covered the same time span as this first full ROP season) Well sure, but the entire trilogy was focused on a single plot point: getting the ring to Mount Doom. Everything was in service to that end, which gives actions an easy dramatic impetus as long as they’re pointed toward that goal. Also, I’d argue that a lot more viewers were familiar with the LOTR characters than are familiar with all the second age characters, so the trilogy also had the benefit of that. The new series, on the other hand, has to make us care about the emergence of Sauron, even though we know how it’s going to end, and on introducing new characters and plot pathways. In that sense, I think it was always doomed to pale in comparison. That’s really an argument for not doing it in the first place, by the way. But that ship has sailed, with some very strange handling of the rudder. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1479 "2022-10-27T19:49:41Z")
Well, you know now. And the main point was that there was a large swath of the population who dedicated themselves to hating the show before they ever viewed one second of the series. When the series released they went with that. > Why are fans mad this time? Take your pick of reasons. It’s a combination of racism, misogyny, and supposed unfaithfulness to Tolkien’s original work. Sometimes all three of these reasons are the same. - [‘Rings Of Power’ Is Getting Review Bombed So Hard Amazon Suspended Reviews Entirely](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2022/09/05/rings-of-power-is-getting-review-bombed-so-hard-amazon-suspended-reviews-entirely/?sh=393ed2a1762f) That is part of your statistics. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1480 "2022-10-27T20:34:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There was a whole army of people committed to hating it for being woke long before the first episode aired. Those people were never likely to change their minds. Yep, they were the worst haters. Then there were the Tolkien perfectionists/fanboys- who oddly were often wrong= _There were no Hobbits back then!!!_ (JRRT makes it clear that Smeagol was a sort of Ur-hobbit). Or _BLACK Hobbits!!??!!_ (one type of hobbit was known to have brown skin- we were not told how brown) They were bad as due to one perceived error, they would slam the show with a one star review. Now sure, the show has/had issues- Galadrial is a bit off to me, the Mithril thing, and the pacing at times- how much screen time do we need to see her afloat on a raft? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This smacks of, “If it is not excellent, it is shit.” Yep. > [@Maserschmidt](#): > > And while some may feel justified in pointing to its respective 71/100 and 85% Fresh ratings from critics, these numbers are provably suspect thanks to Amazon Studio Boss Jennifer Selke’s own admission that they were censoring reviews from critics who had “[points of view that we wouldn’t support](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/)“, Yeah, Amazon got rid of most of the reviews like “woke crap”. And so they should have. The ratings are not 'suspect" for that reason- no one needs racist rants for reviews. Amazon left plenty of one star reviews, just got rid of the racist ones. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > don’t give 5’s to anything that doesn’t cause an orgasm. > > I gave a 4. if it’d been out of 10, I’d have given a 9. Yep. I find the one star ratings in our poll to be suspect. I gave it a 5 on Amazon to balance out the racist 1 star reviews, but I rated it a 4 here. Enjoyable, very watchable, but flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1481 "2022-10-27T21:17:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, Amazon got rid of most of the reviews like “woke crap”. And so they should have. The ratings are not 'suspect" for that reason- no one needs racist rants for reviews. Amazon left plenty of one star reviews, just got rid of the racist ones. The point of my post, and that quote, was that the writer of that linked article didn’t understand that Jennifer Selke can’t get rid of Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes reviews. She has no control over them. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497/1482 "2022-10-27T22:54:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That is part of your statistics. how is that part of the statistics I quoted when a) I also mention the mixed critical reviews (which I assume we don’t think are part of the review bombing crowd) b) I didn’t reference or use the Amazon or IMDB reviews c) I took out all of the negative reviews from the metacritic stats I did mention Even on IMDB the scores don’t match up to those other shows I mentioned and the negative reviews that are on there are not purely to do with a “combination of racism, misogyny and supposed unfaithfulness”. There are loads on there containing perfectly valid criticisms of how the show is put together, written and performed. Honestly, I’ve made the mildest claim possible, that it has had a mixed reception and this may force Amazon into some changes. You seem to be bothered by that for some reason, I don’t know why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-the-rings-of-power/830497.md?page=75)