# Amazon sells book condoning child abuse **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 13, 2013, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806 "2013-11-13T09:05:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/81 "2013-11-14T22:04:37Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Who gets to decide what point of view is valid? You? Congress? The Supreme Court? The tyranny of the masses? The Pope? I vote that I do and I do not think she has a legitimate view point and therefore her book should be pulled from all places it is being sold and the kindle edition should be recalled by Amazon as well. After all that’s not censorship at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/82 "2013-11-14T22:45:41Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > [To Train Up a Child](http://www.amazon.com/To-Train-Child-Michael-Pearl/dp/1892112000) > > I’m not about to buy a copy of the book With used copies going for a penny? What a cheapskate. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/83 "2013-11-15T02:46:16Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Do books that encourage people to let a two month baby go without food deserve a place on the table? Websites that cheer on anorexia deserve a high google ranking? Sites where blacks are called the n word and Jews are called kikes deserve access to Facebook? > > **I think we can all understand the nuances involved in this debate and where obvious lines can and should be drawn**. Bolding mine. > [@TBG](#): > > Who gets to decide what point of view is valid? You? Congress? The Supreme Court? The tyranny of the masses? The Pope? > > You’re on a dangerous path there, pal. Sadly, I have to agree. Believe me, I am disgusted by the book in the OP. And I’m very much in favor of vaccines and have linked your book on Facebook and responded to anti-vax nuts with science and facts. ~BUT~ To the anti-vax nut, vaccines are child abuse and child endangerment and poison that lines the coffers of Big Pharma and whatever other nutty thing he or she wants to call it, and that anti-vax nut feels just as outraged by your book and would love to petition Amazon to pull it because it advocates harming children (in their minds only, sure, but…) That, to me, is the slippery slope. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/84 "2013-11-15T20:17:43Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Who gets to decide what point of view is valid? You? Congress? The Supreme Court? The tyranny of the masses? The Pope? > > You’re on a dangerous path there, pal. But people make these decisions all the time. A newspaper editor at the Newark Star Ledger flat out told me he would not give a platform to self published books or to certain points of view. Google ranks websites that you see when search all the time. The ones they think suck will show up in page 700 of a web search while the ones they believe better will be on the first page. My child’s textbooks are vetted for accuracy before she ever reads them. A valid point of view? Before the measles vaccine was introduced in the 1960’s, over 450 American kids died from measles each year. Thousands were hospitalized. Measles is one of the world’s most contagious diseases. There is no evidence that the measles vaccine causes autism or any other serious problems. Getting a case of measles runs a one in five to one in three risk of side effects. That’s a valid point of view. A non-valid point of view? The MMR causes the autism! The MMR contains toxins! The MMR only exists so that a pHARM companies can make profits! Measles was a great disease! People loved getting it because it made the get help each other! Measles is a harmless disease that never killed anyone!!! That’s not a valid point of view. I have no problem saying anyone who believes such nonsense does not deserve to be heard. I am certainly perfectly comfortable asking my local library not to stock books full of bullshit like that. Why should public library funds be devoted to buying materials that directly endanger the lives of kids in my community? What about a book that argues that blacks are inferior to whites? Or the holocaust never happened? Or telling young women that science says they need to be a hundred pounds or they are fat and disgusting human beings and deserve to die? The lines are already being drawn. They always have been. The best we can do IMO is to make sure they are drawn in a sane way. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/85 "2013-11-16T02:00:38Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The best we can do IMO is to make sure they are drawn in a sane way. But in this scenario, _you’re_ the one defining “sane.” And no offense, but I don’t know you from Adam. Sure, you may _sound_ sane… Look, I hate the idea that there are idiots out there fighting against childhood vaccination. I hate that there are white supremacists and racists (ahem, excuse me, _racialists_) railing against brown people. I hate a lot of things, and I find a lot of points of view “non-valid.” But when you bring the public library into it, I can’t get behind you. I don’t want a single lick of censorship in my library. I don’t even want to be like France, with the Gayssot Law. Great intentions, prohibiting Holocaust denial and the like, but it’s not for me. It seems to me a very short step from “eliminate the anti-vax idiocy” (or “eliminate the anti-Holocaust idiocy” or “eliminate the anti-gay idiocy”) to “eliminate whatever it is that I personally find unfounded and harmful.” Perhaps we can save the ignorant from themselves. But I cannot agree that silencing idiocy is the way to do it. Too dangerous a precedent. -a- ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/86 "2013-11-16T02:29:35Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But when you bring the public library into it, I can’t get behind you. I don’t want a single lick of censorship in my library. I don’t even want to be like France, with the Gayssot Law. Great intentions, prohibiting Holocaust denial and the like, but it’s not for me. But libraries have to decide what not to buy all the time; even when things are donated they have to decide about valuable and limited shelf space. How should they decide what to carry? I don’t have to agree with everything in my library, but I sure as hell don’t want them giving equal space and time to Holocaust histories and Holocaust denials (or pro-baby beating and anti-baby beating groups) as if those were just equally valid competing perspectives. Would I support banning such texts? Not at all. But libraries are allowed to have guidelines for how they chose what to use their limited resources on, and I think “only books that don’t endorse child abuse” is a pretty reasonable guideline. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/87 "2013-11-16T03:35:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t have to agree with everything in my library, but I sure as hell don’t want them giving equal space and time to Holocaust histories and Holocaust denials…as if those were just equally valid competing perspectives. Sure. On the other hand, Millie Teasdale from Flyover County, Indiana says: “I don’t have to agree with everything in my library, but I sure as heck don’t want them giving equal space to secular humanism and the homosexual agenda as if those were just equally valid competing perspectives.” I agree with you _in re_ Holocaust denial, and disagree with Millie about religion and teh gheys. But…I hate the idea of enforcing my views, however awesome they are (and my views certainly are awesome, fa reals), by any sort of force. I have to believe that we all have the freedom to be idiots. So yeah, dunno. Community standards? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/88 "2013-11-16T04:39:36Z")
Ezzo and the Pearls are part of the Christian Dominionist/Patriarchy/Quiverfull/Stay-at-Home Daughters/ATI/IBLP/Gothard cult, that demands 1. Whatever punishment necessary to teach children to behave 100% correctly 100% of the time, up to and including beating them to death or starving them to death. A number of high profile child-abuse cases have involved parents who followed the TTUAC philosophy. Many of these families also baby and child hoard, adopting disadvantaged orphans and not-so-orphans from other countries. The book advocates beating children as young as one month of age, and even recommends the tool - plumbing line. 2. Christians should run the world, and should remove anyone not Christian from public office or public life. Non-Christians do not deserve equal rights. 3. Women and girls do not deserve and do not need education, and are merely walking uteri. 4. There is a real, actual, ongoing war in this world between God and the forces of Satan, and if you do not ascribe to their specific philosophy, you are a servant and warrior of Satan and will be destroyed during this war. That having been said… On this issue, I emotionally agree with my co-author **LavenderBlue** that filth like this doesn’t deserve public airing. We co-authored a book that a lot of people feel is equal filth. I am hesitant to condone the concept of official censorship, although I know that unofficially, censorship is inherent in the choices libraries make about the books they buy. There is at least one relatively vocal vaccine denialist advocate who is, herself, a librarian, and has no pro-vaccine books in her library branch, but plenty of copies of anti-vaccine books. Public library resources are scarce - how do we ensure the best use of those resources, by using them to purchase the best quality of resources for the general public? I remember that there was a recent similar kerfluffle about a book that was a “how to” book for pedophiles, that was for sale on Amazon. Amazon pulled the book after complaints. Is that censorship? Or a market-based response? I think the latter, I’m sure pedophiles think the former. I do agree that as a civilized society with limited public resources for providing information to the public, libraries have to walk a fine line with their government money so they don’t get accused of a violation of the First Amendment. I also agree that asking Amazon (a private company) to not carry how-to books for pedophiles, or how-to manuals for child abuse, isn’t the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/89 "2013-11-16T10:54:14Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But libraries have to decide what not to buy all the time; even when things are donated they have to decide about valuable and limited shelf space. How should they decide what to carry? The same as they always have: a library should carry what its users want to use. You’re trying to equate a librarian making carry decisions with your desire to suppress views you don’t care for. I just don’t think they’re the same; the library should be more disinterested than you are. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/90 "2013-11-16T12:52:56Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > The same as they always have: a library should carry what its users want to use. You’re trying to equate a librarian making carry decisions with your desire to suppress views you don’t care for. I just don’t think they’re the same; the library should be more disinterested than you are. One of the purposes of a library is to educate. Carrying provably false, demonstrably harmful anti-science books goes completely against that. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/91 "2013-11-16T15:29:00Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > No one is owed access to Amazon or Facebook or the Dope or any other media outlet. I co-run a Facebook page for my book. I will not delete anti-vax posts. I have deleted personal threats, vulgar language and attacks on my kids. > > FYI, Amazon has a very lenient policy about what books it will allow on the site and what comments it will allow posted on books. I’ve been trying to get a certain Cynthia Parker to stop using my book as her personal blog for every anti-vax conspiracy theory she can dream up. I was told they will not delete her idiotic posts unless it contains an actual threat of some sort. Instead they argue that posts are subject to voting procedures and that determines their worth. > > I understand that policy but I do not agree with it. It gives credence to people who do not deserve to be heard. For example, there’s a certain anti-vax moron I have argued with in the past. Said anti-vax nut has self published dreck on Amazon. His collection of lies is given the same credence in a search as my book or a book by Dr. Paul Offit. > > I think Amazon needs to rethink their policies in this matter. A book like that of the OP or the one written by an anti-vax moron or Ezzo does not deserve a place on the shelf. Depriving it of such is not censorship. It is merely a reasonable determination that not all people deserve to be heard a place in the public square. We make such determinations all the time. I fail to see why it would be so outrageous should Amazon officials decide to do so as well. > > You have the right to own your own printing press. You do NOT have the right to get access to my printing press. And who are you to say what should and should not be sold by Amazon, why is it that morons always think that they can shove their OPINIONS down the throats of others. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/92 "2013-11-16T17:16:01Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > And who are you to say what should and should not be sold by Amazon One of their customers. That’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/93 "2013-11-16T18:43:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > One of the purposes of a library is to educate. Carrying provably false, demonstrably harmful anti-science books goes completely against that. I don’t know about that. If I wanted to write a book demolishing the anti-vax movement, one of the things I’d need to do is read the anti-vaxer’s arguments first hand. I’d expect to be able to get those research materials through my library, or at least through inter-library loan. Similarly, if I were writing a book about Hitler, I’d expect to be able to go to my library and get a copy of _Mein Kampf_. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/94 "2013-11-16T18:52:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The publisher is wholly owned/operated by the author, so kind of redundant. So, in other words, it’s a vanity press. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/95 "2013-11-16T18:57:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t know about that. If I wanted to write a book demolishing the anti-vax movement, one of the things I’d need to do is read the anti-vaxer’s arguments first hand. I’d expect to be able to get those research materials through my library, or at least through inter-library loan. Similarly, if I were writing a book about Hitler, I’d expect to be able to go to my library and get a copy of _Mein Kampf_. You make a good point here. Firstly, I’m not advocating that anyone should be _prohibited_ from publishing, stocking, or selling these books. It should be at the discretion of the publisher, librarian, or whoever. What I _am_ saying is they should use that discretion, and that would mean balancing the harm and benefit of having such a book. To take your example, it would be possible to have such a book available, but not on display, and it would be more appropriate in a University research library than a public one, in my opinion. I would hope that someone in charge of stocking science books in a library has a good understanding of science, and judges what to stock based on scientific accuracy, not bias. That would be especially important in a public library - it is certainly not the place of Government to provide a platform for outright lies (insert joke here, obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/96 "2013-11-16T20:40:45Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > What the hell is the title of that book even supposed to mean? I’m not sure I need any help meet. Helpmeet is an archaic word, but a [perfectly good one.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/helpmeet) ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/97 "2013-11-16T23:57:22Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Helpmeet is an archaic word, but a [perfectly good one.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/helpmeet) But the [term as used by the fundies](http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/help_meet.htm) varies just a bit from the original definition. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/98 "2013-11-17T01:44:17Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Doesn’t [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) sell _Mein Kampf_, as well? What about the bible or the koran? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/99 "2013-11-20T10:21:30Z")
The point is that Amazon is not the public marketplace. Not selling something on Amazon is not censorship (as most people use the term) because it would not in any way prevent the book from being sold to those who wanted it. As for the argument that you need access to even the wrong stuff–that’s not how Amazon is selling it. The official blurb talks like it is a good thing. And when you both sell and promote something, it’s expected that you agree with it. I mean, if I told you that I had a book for sale that describes the way the world should be run, and, it’s called _Mein Kampf_, wouldn’t you be upset? Do I not have the right not to sell you that book under those conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806/100 "2013-11-20T12:05:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The point is that Amazon is not the public marketplace. Not selling something on Amazon is not censorship (as most people use the term) because it would not in any way prevent the book from being sold to those who wanted it. > > As for the argument that you need access to even the wrong stuff–that’s not how Amazon is selling it. The official blurb talks like it is a good thing. And when you both sell and promote something, it’s expected that you agree with it. > > I mean, if I told you that I had a book for sale that describes the way the world should be run, and, it’s called _Mein Kampf_, wouldn’t you be upset? Do I not have the right not to sell you that book under those conditions? Hey aren’t you that guy who lives in his mums basement? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amazon-sells-book-condoning-child-abuse/673806.md?page=6)