# Amendment One Passes in NC **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 9, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345 "2012-05-09T01:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/81 "2012-05-09T17:53:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You just handed a blank check to every politician on the right. I’m sure they’re very greatful. “Blank check” to do… what? Practice politics? You might not have noticed, but that’s a check they don’t need to receive from me, they get it from their respective electorate each and every term of office. > [@](#): > > A leader leads. He could lead the nation in breaking down on of the last bastions of discrimination in this country. If he’s not up to the task, we should find someone who is. This tantrum gets more and more foolish. Go find “someone” who’s up to the task of actually moving legislatures solely on the strength of his or her own convictions, much less legislatures his/her highly moral public stance has helped push into the control of an intractable opposition party. > [@](#): > > If he wants to play politics with it, he should look at how it will rally the youth vote. That may be a gambit he takes today in his interview with ABC. I hope so, as it means he sees a way to get legislative support through that tactic. But until and unless the “youth vote” can directly pass laws through Congress, it’s just juvenile to whine about a leader’s use of _politics_ to translate an ideal -whether popularly supported or not- into legislative action. That’s what politics is for, dammit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/82 "2012-05-09T17:56:09Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > “Blank check” to do… what? Practice politics? You might not have noticed, but that’s a check they don’t need to receive from me, they get it from their respective electorate each and every term of office. A blank check to be excused from doing the right thing in favor of politics. > [@](#): > > This tantrum gets more and more foolish. I don’t know how on earth you could think what I wrote was a “tantrum”. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/83 "2012-05-09T18:07:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A blank check to be excused from doing the right thing in favor of politics. Baloney. Accepting political realities and applauding my President’s ability to work within those realities to affect incremental positive change doesn’t translate into approval of Romneyesque political malleability. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how on earth you could think what I wrote was a “tantrum”. You wrote, on the subject of a single issue which, depending on how the POTUS handles his public stances can be used by extremists as an effective wedge: “If he’s not up to the task, we should find someone who is.” That’s classic poutrage, and just dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/84 "2012-05-09T18:15:51Z")
One thing that often gets overlooked in this debate: We often talk about what government should and should not do, and that’s proper. It’s reasonable to say that the government should not prohibit gay marriage. But there’s an even more fundamental question, what the government _can_ and _can not_ do. Not only _should_ the government not ban SSM, but it _can’t_. If two people decide to get married, and go through with something they consider to be a marriage, then there’s no mortal agency that can stop them. Now, the government can (but should not) decide not to _recognize_ certain marriages, but that’s a different thing than actually stopping them. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/85 "2012-05-09T18:23:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Now, the government can (but should not) decide not to _recognize_ certain marriages, but that’s a different thing than actually stopping them. Weren’t people in mixed-race marriages arrested? _checks_ Yes, Virginia arrested the Lovings, and they were found guilty and sentenced to a year in prison (suspended). Am I misunderstanding you? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/86 "2012-05-09T18:26:30Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I disagree, but I’m an ideologue of democracy. I think that representative democracy should be replaced by consensus and that well publicised debates with neutral framing of the issues should precede every vote of some significance. I’d also support requiring a supermajority (of say 80%) to pass or amend a Constitutional amendment granting or declining rights to minorities. Rights don’t exist except by what societies grant, so ultimately a society decides what rights there are. But deciding that members of that society don’t get a right isn’t something that should be put up to a vote. This is exactly the same thing as saying that the right to bear arms (which I’m not a fan of, personally, but our society grants it anyway) doesn’t apply to people of Dutch descent. No amount of voting should allow that, unless you can demonstrate some compelling reason. And there has never been a reason to disallow SSM that was based on a rational argument. Magellan, for instance, has argued to disallow same sex couples from marrying in perhaps twenty or more threads and thousands of posts, and he has never once given a reason for it that is in the least rational. Neither has anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/87 "2012-05-09T18:32:46Z")
If it were my choice, SSM would be the law in every state. At least some people suggesting that civil unions would be easier to pass aren’t opposed to SSM they just realize that if you ask an all-or-nothing question, you might get nothing. Regarding the 14th amendment hypothetical, it would definitely depend on the context. If there was no way to get the 14th passed in a given political climate, the text suggested would be an acceptable middle ground to hold until the political climate changes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/88 "2012-05-09T18:41:52Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Baloney. Accepting political realities and applauding my President’s ability to work within those realities to affect incremental positive change doesn’t translate into approval of Romneyesque political malleability. You have a much greater ability to rationalize this than I do. As I said, this might have been true 10 years ago, but I think we’re well past that. At some point you have to abandon such a fearful position. > [@](#): > > You wrote, on the subject of a single issue which, depending on how the POTUS handles his public stances can be used by extremists as an effective wedge: “If he’s not up to the task, we should find someone who is.” That’s classic poutrage, and just dumb. It’s “only” the single most important civil rights issue of our age. If can’t lead on that, he’s no leader. And it was a rhetorical remark, since it’s not going to happen. He’s already secured the Democratic nomination. What’s “dumb” is dismissing an argument as a tantrum. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/89 "2012-05-09T18:45:26Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > At least some people suggesting that civil unions would be easier to pass aren’t opposed to SSM they just realize that if you ask an all-or-nothing question, you might get nothing. The progress that’s been made on gay rights issues over the last 10 years or so indicates that this is no longer true (if it ever was). SSM opponents realize the same thing, which is why they’ve been working on these pre-emptive state constitutional amendments that are just going to get shamefacedly overturned a couple of decades from now. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/90 "2012-05-09T19:07:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You have a much greater ability to rationalize this than I do. As I said, this might have been true 10 years ago, but I think we’re well past that. At some point you have to abandon such a fearful position. You can’t do anything in a democracy without winning elections. That’s not a “fearful position” of yesteryear. > [@](#): > > What’s “dumb” is dismissing an argument as a tantrum. What’s dishonest is mischaracterizing my disagreement with your argument as a _dismissal_ of it. I’ve addressed your points as I understand them. You, on the other hand, continue to handwave the despised _politics_ of the issue away as if they’re minor obstacles to the resolution of institutionalized discrimination, when in the fact they’re the very heart of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/91 "2012-05-09T19:09:16Z")
[Hells yeah, Mr. President!](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/09/11621156-obama-backs-same-sex-marriage?lite) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/92 "2012-05-09T19:11:15Z")
[Obama said this afternoon that he thinks same-sex couples should be allowed to marry, so we’ll see where this discussion goes next.](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/09/breaking-obama-comes-out-in-support-of-same-sex-marriage/) ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/93 "2012-05-09T19:11:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t even know if I bothered to mark that race on the ballot. I probably did, but out of habit–who cares about it, except for a few pitiful Republicans desperate to twist some stats to make a cheap shot? > > And yeah, although the vote went exactly the way I expected it to, I wish I could think better of my fellow North Carolinians. Another North Carolinian who is today ashamed of his small-minded homophobic fellow citizens.☹ ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/94 "2012-05-09T19:15:59Z")
Good for the President. I hope this inspires more “D” voters than “R”. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/95 "2012-05-09T19:25:42Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Good for the President. I hope this inspires more “D” voters than “R”. I do too, but I think at some point he just had to say “politics be damned, I need to be on the right side of history.” Like LBJ and AL. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/96 "2012-05-09T20:00:01Z")
Well Obama didn’t think marriage was a civil right in 2004 and still does not believe that it is. From [2004](http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-2004-i-dont-think-marriage-civil-right_644238.html) > [@Obama](#): > > I don’t think marriage is a civil right [Today](http://news.yahoo.com/obama-announces-his-support-for-same-sex-marriage.html) he still believes it should be up to the states to decide. > [@Yahoo story](#): > > The president stressed that this is a personal position, and that he still supports the concept of states deciding the issue on their own. But he said he’s confident that more Americans will grow comfortable with gays and lesbians getting married, citing his own daughters’ comfort with the concept. He’s still riding the fence. He can’t even decisively flip-flop. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/97 "2012-05-09T20:07:04Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > I do too, but I think at some point he just had to say “politics be damned, I need to be on the right side of history.” Like LBJ and AL. I like Obama generally, but I have no doubt that his decision to support SSM wasn’t completely the result of political reasoning, and any resemblance to his actual feelings on the matter are coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/98 "2012-05-09T20:22:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **bup** : > > Weren’t people in mixed-race marriages arrested? _checks_ > > Yes, Virginia arrested the Lovings, and they were found guilty and sentenced to a year in prison (suspended). > > Am I misunderstanding you? Yes, the government arrested them, but that didn’t change the fact that they were still married. Arresting people for getting married is something the government can do. Stopping people from getting married is not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/99 "2012-05-09T20:44:57Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > He can’t even decisively flip-flop. Yeah, darn guy I’m always complaining about can’t do anything right! ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345/100 "2012-05-09T20:53:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, the government arrested them, but that didn’t change the fact that they were still married. Arresting people for getting married is something the government can do. Stopping people from getting married is not. If the government can punish an action, to the point of incarceration, I don’t see what your point is. The government probably can’t stop me from doing a whole lot of illegal things. It can only punish me afterward, and take away my civil rights. Your distinction is…well, I don’t see the point. It makes no material difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amendment-one-passes-in-nc/621345.md?page=6)