# America: Freedom to Fascism- the legality of the income tax
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 23, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172 "2007-09-23T04:26:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/1 "2007-09-23T04:26:28Z")
OK, my friend is making me watch this movie right now, about how the income tax in the U.S. is illegal, unconstitutional, etc. I searched for previous threads on this topic, but obviously couldn’t include words like tax or irs, so found very little.
So, is the income tax legal? Does the constitution prohibit it? Just looking for counterarguments because he’s got a fancy-looking movie to back him up :p. (I am posting this while the movie is in progress, so I can’t post any specific claims yet, although I’ll be able to answer questions on it later. You can find it on google video if you’re so inclined.)
Tell me, have I been fooled all these years? Is the IRS stealing my money?
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### Author:  [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/2 "2007-09-23T04:39:54Z")
16th Amendment
> **[Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)**
>
> The Sixteenth Amendment (Amendment XVI) to the United States Constitution allows Congress to levy an income tax without apportioning it among the states on the basis of population. It was passed by Congress in 1909 in response to the 1895 Supreme Court case of Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co. The Sixteenth Amendment was ratified by the requisite number of states on February 3, 1913, and effectively overruled the Supreme Court's ruling in Pollock. Prior to the early 20th century, most federa...
> [@Wiki](#):
>
> The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
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### Author:  [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/3 "2007-09-23T05:09:54Z")
I don’t know what arguments the movie is putting forward, but Cecil has already tacked [one particular anti-tax argument](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_127.html).
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/4 "2007-09-23T05:18:36Z")
Oh God help us, here we go again.
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### Author:  [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/5 "2007-09-23T05:26:16Z")
Here are some previous threads on this topic:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=377228&highlight=protestor](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=377228&highlight=protestor)
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=197524&highlight=protestor](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=197524&highlight=protestor)
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=151246&highlight=protestor](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=151246&highlight=protestor)
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=121312&highlight=protestor](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=121312&highlight=protestor)
Links can be found in those threads but the IRS web site has a section devoted to nutty anti-tax arguments (and why they’re not going to get you anything but trouble), every court in the land up to and including the Supreme Court has shot them down, etc.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/6 "2007-09-23T05:57:44Z")
Here is the ultimate website:
[http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp](http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp)
They call such things “Idiot Legal Arguments: A Casebook for Dealing with Extremist Legal Arguments” _and they are right._
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/7 "2007-09-23T11:45:03Z")
I know what they end up calling these people once the court procedings are over…
Inmate # …
That’s enough for me not to take these things too seriously. The John Birch Society for all it’s opposition to the 16th Amendment & the progressive income tax does not recommend people try these legal stunts. They do recommend repeal of the 16 Amendment by Congress and state legislatures.
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### Author:  [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/8 "2007-09-23T11:54:57Z")
Tell your friend that the American Revolution was illegal under British law and so:
- he owes allegiance to Queen Elizabeth II
- he owes back taxes to Her Majesty’s Inland Revenue (and they make the IRS look like pussies)
- his house is forfeit under British claims for war damages
:rolleyes: :smack: 😕 :eek:
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2007, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/9 "2007-09-23T12:39:33Z")
And this one:
[http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html](http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
Tax protesters are my favorite kind of delusional nutjobs. I know Dopers have a soft spot for the Young Earth Creationists, but I think the whole “willing to go to jail for my delusions” makes this a special case.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/10 "2007-09-25T20:27:30Z")
The bottom line is that anyone who claims that you don’t have to pay taxes is wrong. If you don’t pay your taxes the government will throw you in jail. Whether they are fascist tyrants for putting you in jail is beside the point. You WILL go to jail.
Tax protestors believe in a contradiction. On the one hand, the current US government is tyrannical and regularly spits on the US constitution. On the other hand, all you have to do is point out that they don’t have the right to collect taxes and those same fascists will apologize and let you go.
In a real fascist country, the fascists do whatever they like. The laws as written are worth nothing, what matters is what the masters order. You think Saddam Hussein would have let you go if you dug out a copy of the Iraqi constitution and showed the Revolutionary Guards the clause that guaranteed freedom of speech? No, they’d just laugh and beat you harder.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/11 "2007-09-25T21:11:55Z")
Tax protestors [Ed and Elaine Brown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown) are still holed up on their property, believe it or not. ([GD](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407101) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424623).)
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### Author:  [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/12 "2007-09-25T21:47:17Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Here is the ultimate website:
[http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp](http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp)
[/QUOTE]
Well, the [IRS](http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159853,00.html) might take exception to not being #1😉
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/13 "2007-09-25T23:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin]
Well, the [IRS](http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159853,00.html) might take exception to not being #1😉
[/QUOTE]
They don’t spell it out as plainly. Congress, in it’s “infinite wisdom” :dubious: actually passed a law saying that the IRS can’t use the term “Tax protestor”. :rolleyes:
The “Taxpayer Bill of Rights” made IRS employees into the group pf employees with the least rights of all. Sure, “assaulting a taxpayer” should be grounds for termination, but it is only the IRS where such is actually mandated by Congress. Along with cruising through confidential info (sure, it’s bad if the
IRS does it, but why isn’t it just as bad if the Soc Security Admin or FBI does it?)
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2007, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/14 "2007-09-26T00:21:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
The bottom line is that anyone who claims that you don’t have to pay taxes is wrong. If you don’t pay your taxes the government will throw you in jail. Whether they are fascist tyrants for putting you in jail is beside the point. You WILL go to jail.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, they are unlikely to throw you in jail - they save jail for people who are encouraging others in ‘tax protest’ or are egregious and public. Simple tax protestation will just get a lien on any income or property. People HAVE managed to successfully avoid the IRS by not ever getting paid in anything but cash and not holding property. Unless its a significant amount of income (or income thats been gained illegally, the IRS is still fond of the Al Capone method of catching gangsters), they won’t bother too much - they will, however, charge interest and penalties until there is no way to pay, so don’t take up tax protestation when you are young unless you are certain you want to live that way for the rest of your life (its worse than a tattoo) - its really an old people’s hobby.
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### Author:  [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/15 "2007-10-01T18:10:39Z")
Can I make a slightly off topic comment but one that I strongly believe in ?
O.K. the Boston tea Party,your making a political point and after that you’d look pretty damn silly if you carried on drinkingt tea.
With you so far .
So you have to drink some other sort of a mild stimulant .
And you drink Coffee ,Roger so far !
And you keep drinking it .
Long after our fraternal falling out has been forgotten.
And you keep drinking it long after we’ve arrived at the drunken "Your my best fuckin mate you are ,I’m not queer but I fucken love you man !
And you still pretend to like a drink ,that how ever you amend it ,how ever you try to justify it tastes like rancid sheeps piss dipped in acid .
Thats O.K. make your point but us Brits are drinking the real stuff .
WowI really admire you guys .you put a man on the moon
Oh my god you really drink this shit ?
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/16 "2007-10-01T18:47:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Can I make a slightly off topic comment but one that I strongly believe in ?
O.K. the Boston tea Party,your making a political point and after that you’d look pretty damn silly if you carried on drinkingt tea.
With you so far .
So you have to drink some other sort of a mild stimulant .
And you drink Coffee ,Roger so far !
And you keep drinking it .
Long after our fraternal falling out has been forgotten.
And you keep drinking it long after we’ve arrived at the drunken "Your my best fuckin mate you are ,I’m not queer but I fucken love you man !
And you still pretend to like a drink ,that how ever you amend it ,how ever you try to justify it tastes like rancid sheeps piss dipped in acid .
Thats O.K. make your point but us Brits are drinking the real stuff .
WowI really admire you guys .you put a man on the moon
Oh my god you really drink this shit ?
[/QUOTE]
My reply [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9032279#post9032279). Figured it was (a) a bit off-topic, and (b) more of an IMHO debate anyway. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/17 "2007-10-01T18:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
And you still pretend to like a drink ,that how ever you amend it ,how ever you try to justify it tastes like rancid sheeps piss dipped in acid .
Thats O.K. make your point but us Brits are drinking the real stuff .
[/QUOTE]
Coffee was popular in England before it was commonly drank in the US, the insurance agency Lloyds of London started out as a coffeehouse, the London stock exchange got its start in a coffeehouse, and there were hundreds of coffeehouses in London in the 18th century.
So, we learned about drinking coffee from you.
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### Author:  [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/18 "2007-10-01T19:22:31Z")
[QUOTE=glee]
Tell your friend… he owes back taxes to Her Majesty’s Inland Revenue (and they make the IRS look like pussies)
[/QUOTE]
Do they send the royal corgis after tax evaders?
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### Author:  [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2007, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/19 "2007-10-02T04:35:54Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Coffee was popular in England before it was commonly drank in the US, the insurance agency Lloyds of London started out as a coffeehouse, the London stock exchange got its start in a coffeehouse, and there were hundreds of coffeehouses in London in the 18th century.
So, we learned about drinking coffee from you.
[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah thats just typical ,try and shift the blame onto us why dont you.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2007, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172/20 "2007-10-02T04:59:29Z")
The US income tax is timid compared to some of the expansions of federal power that have been interpreted into existence by various SC rulings. Imagine- having to formally amend the Constitution simply to give the federal government the legal authority to do something? How quaint!
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-freedom-to-fascism-the-legality-of-the-income-tax/420172.md?page=2)