# America: If I don't love it, how can I leave it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2000, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645 "2000-07-24T14:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/1 "2000-07-24T14:35:41Z")
This might be a General Question, but I also see the philosophy behind it possibly coming into debate. As such, I’m posting it in this forum. Drain Bead and myself were chatting about the upcoming presidential elections. We both saw a United States with the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and in the White House. We were both frightened to no end. Now, I understand that things have reached this point because a majority of voters picked these folks. So, I can’t complain about a system where I made my own votes that just didn’t make a difference. However, say this does come to fruition. Say within a couple of years, the Supreme Court is turned-over with enough Bush appointees to upset the balance so people with that agenda are effectively in charge of all three branches of our government. Then, they go about with implementing an agenda which makes every good conservative Republican smile: Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortiona are illegal here. We suddenly find ourselves to actually BE called a “Christian nation,” and decisions start making us look (and maybe even at times act) like a slight theocracy. Suddenly, I don’t feel confortable and possibly even persectuted by my own government. Can I leave to another country and get political asylum for this? Or do I have to be leaving a country where direct physical threats or other more direct actions have to be taken to take away my “human rights” for me to successfully enter and become a citizen of another country? Would it matter what country it was (Canada might have different rules than Mexico, for example)? * * * Yer pal, Satan _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Three months, two weeks, one day, 12 hours, 36 minutes and 4 seconds. 4261 cigarettes not smoked, saving $532.63. Life saved: 2 weeks, 19 hours, 5 minutes._ Visit [The Fabulous Forums of Fathom](http://fff.fathom.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?) ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/2 "2000-07-24T15:01:06Z")
There’s an excellent chance the Democrats will regain the House this year, so you might want to forstall panic a bit longer. I don’t really see the point in getting asylum from the States. Even if what you suggest comes true, your citizenship while living overseas will be still be an asset. As I understand, it is fairly easy to go to Canada or Mexico and live there as a U.S. citizen - a popular choice for retirees. I’m not sure about Western Europe or elsewhere - probably more complicated, but doable. Dual citizenship is sometimes an option. But the asylum question - I think you have to prove your life is in immediate danger from the authorities because of your political beliefs. That’s a tall order around here, and even under an all-right-wing-Christian government, hard to prove. It’d be easier to just go the work route. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/3 "2000-07-24T15:09:50Z")
First of all, Satan, nothing lasts forever. Americans are, as a rule, die-hard moderates. If they feel that things are leaning too much in one direction, there’ll be a backlash. Most voters don’t want a far-right, religeous state, and most politicians want voters. Things will probably even out. Second, remember the famous papraphrase: “America - love it or change it”. This may sound naive, but if you don’t like the way thing are going, then fight to change them! Unlike most of the world, you live in a democracy, and this give you a lot of freedom of action. And if they cncel the democracy, thrn take up arms and fight the good fight. There’s a lot to be said for leaving, but even more to be said for standing your ground. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/4 "2000-07-24T15:10:14Z")
Simply because a SC justice was appointed by a republican is no reason to assume he will rubber stamp everything the right-wing fringe asks for. …Is it? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/5 "2000-07-24T15:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > We both saw a United States with the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and in the White House. > [@](#): > > There’s an excellent chance the Democrats will regain the House this year, so you might want to forstall panic a bit longer. I see them as Tweedledee and Tweedledum. One wants to adjust spending by 2%, and the other by 4%. One wants to reduce taxes for some people but not others, and the other wants to reduce taxes for some people but not others. Both want to continue the War on Americans I Mean Drugs, and both want to perpetuate Social Insecurity and Medi-don’t-care. One wants a hand on your wallet, and the other wants a hand on your zipper. The American Experiment is over. Might as well lay back and enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/6 "2000-07-24T15:16:34Z")
The belief that the Democratic Party represents the interests of minorities and the working class and the Republican Party represents the upper classes is a false dichotomy. Both parties have long since ceased to differ in any sigificant way in policy or philosophy. The only interests served are the stock portfolios of the entrenched, Ivy-league educated Eastern elite. The one attempt to found a populists third-party, the Reform Party, was scuppered first by Perot’s insanity and then by the putsch by Buchanan and his brown shirts. The Libertarian party will never be a force in American politics because their views are too extreme. I’m not enthused by either candidate. Neither one has ever had a real job or has faced the problems of average Americans. Whoever wins, the workers will get screwed. The choice of Supreme Court seats is important, but I’m not convinced that Gore’s appointments would be any more sensible than those of Dubya. In any case, why would you feel persecuted just by living in a conservative country? If you’re not happy, organize. vote for your candidate and get others to do the same. If you just cut and run, or don’t vote at all, you’re just handing the country over to your enemies. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/7 "2000-07-24T15:42:05Z")
My favorite two quotes are this. Sorry, I can’t remember who said either. “Republicans are the best friend capitalism ever had, Democrats on the other hand, are the second best friend capitalism ever had.” and “The politics of lesser-evilism will end up with Democrats, in hell, rounding up votes for Satan, because Bealzebub would be even worse” I love that one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/8 "2000-07-24T15:44:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Then, they go about with implementing an agenda which makes every good conservative Republican smile: Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortiona are illegal here. We suddenly find ourselves to actually BE called a “Christian nation,” and decisions start making us look (and maybe even at times act) like a slight theocracy. Ayep. Lord knows, every Republican SC appointee has always turned out to be a toe-the-line conservative. God forbid that Bush appoints someone like Earl Warren again (an Eishenhower appointee)- you can kiss all of your rights goodbye. And it’s not like some of those most likely to step down are _already_ conservatives (Rehnquist). And it’s not like Bush has already said he doesn’t see the overturn of Roe v. Wade happening within the next decade, even _were_ he President. But, feel free to overreact. Lord knows _I_ will if it looks like Gore is going to become President _and_ the Dems might take back Congress. Canada is probably your best option: move to Buffalo and find a job across the border in Canada, then, when the Fundamentalist Inquisitory Force begins rounding up Jews, you’ve already got an ‘in’ with the Canadian government (namely, that you’ve proven that you can support yourself in their country by having a Canadian job). The U.S. recognizes political asylum based upon direct threats to life for political views; I’d be surprised if Canada reacted much differently. If you tried to claim asylum in Canada because “the President is snotty about non-Christians”, they’d probably laugh at you. If you could actually show that your life and/or livelihood were in danger, that would be different. ---
**Author:** ![Squid\_Vicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Squid\_Vicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squid_Vicious)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/9 "2000-07-24T15:46:43Z")
Geez Satan, Do you really believe all that or are you just trolling for right wing zealots? First of all, I think that your predictions of a Republican America are somewhat apocryphal. MOST republicans would be just as frightened of your version of the future as you are. As with most divisions in our society, the fringe elements seem to be the most vocal; and, therefore, the majority of the group gets identified with those traits. I wouldn’t characterize the average republican (or politician for that matter) by the christian right. Nor would I characterize the average democrat by the Limosine Liberals that run around the country yelling about this or that pet cause that 9 out of 10 times they know nothing about. But let’s just suppose your fears are real and not just some pseudo-intellectual exercise you devised in some coffee shop. Requesting political asylum should be pretty easy. Just go to the nearest embassy of any of the neer-do-well third world countries and denounce the U.S government. They’d probably fall over themselves to grant your asylum. No embassy handy? Well then, save up your cash and by a boat or a plane and go to Cuba. If you land safely, I’m sure Fidel will be more than glad for the press. Of course it would be so much easier to just apply to some other country for a visa. The only country that I know of that you have to be born in to get citizenship is Malta. Oh, by the way, the U.S. doesn’t recognize dual citizenship. If you accept citizenship in another country, you effectively renounce US citizenship. Happy hunting. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/10 "2000-07-24T16:08:16Z")
I hear the Yankee $ goes a long way in Cuba. Great weather, great music, cheap booze…going to be a pretty cool place once Fidel turns his toes up. Got to get the plumbing working, though ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/11 "2000-07-24T16:18:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, by the way, the U.S. doesn’t recognize dual citizenship. If you accept citizenship in another country, you effectively renounce US citizenship. 'Scuse me, but that’s not true. Since my mom was born in the US, my brother and I have functional US citizenships, and she received her Canadian citizenship a few years ago. She has both a Canadian and a US passport, and Theo and I could get a US passport if we wanted one. Although I’m thinking of giving up mine, on the theory that if I should happen to visit the US, I don’t want to be arrested for violating the draft or something. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/12 "2000-07-24T16:31:45Z")
As much as I appreciate the more, uh, antagonizing nature of some of the posters above, allow me to clarify. First of all, I said _IF_ these things were to happen, not that they were a foregone conclusion. And given the current political climate - a climate where ONE SINGLE VOTE on the Supreme Court would have made a recent ruling on so-called “Partiual Birth Abortions” the opposite of what it is - I do not think that seeing it as within the realm of possibility if somehow delusional paranoia on my part. Second of all, if reproductive rights by themselves is enough of a hot button issue for me to not want to be in this country, I believe that I have that right. As to whether this would be sufficient for political asylum is unlikely, but I have a right to feel that a single issue such as this would be enough to renounce the country, even if that is silly. * * * Yer pal, Satan _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Three months, two weeks, one day, 14 hours, 32 minutes and 3 seconds. 4264 cigarettes not smoked, saving $533.03. Life saved: 2 weeks, 19 hours, 20 minutes._ Visit [The Fabulous Forums of Fathom](http://fff.fathom.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?) ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/13 "2000-07-24T16:42:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squid Vicious \* > \*\*Oh, by the way, the U.S. doesn’t recognize dual citizenship. If you accept citizenship in another country, you effectively renounce US citizenship. > . \*\* As someone with dual citizenship. First American, then Irish, I respectfully disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/14 "2000-07-24T16:45:50Z")
First of all, Satan, you are assuming that the Repubs will actually carry out their philosophies. The same fear existed pre-Clinton. But the truth is that no politico is going to make decisions that are opposed by the majority. So abortion is not going to be made illegal b/c of the views of the president. Secondly, if the repubs rule everything, we will see an increase in rights if for no other reason than we will still have our guns. The repubs tend to make gov’t weaker, not stronger (with the exception of abortion.) I really doubt you are going to see anything more dramatic than having the 10 commandments posted at a few schools. I don’t like it, but this is less of a concern than having guns banned or more ADA/OSHA/Affirmative Action type of abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/15 "2000-07-24T16:46:53Z")
**Satan** > [@](#): > > As to whether this would be sufficient for political asylum is unlikely, but I have a right to feel that a single issue such as this would be enough to renounce the country, even if that is silly. Matters little. Whatever authority may usurp one right may just as equally usurp them all. Think of the Republicrats as two forces eating away at you, one from the head, the other from the feet. Sooner or later, they will meet at your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Squid\_Vicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Squid\_Vicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squid_Vicious)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/16 "2000-07-24T16:49:22Z")
Matt, (Why are Canadians so thick on this issue?) Canada recognizes dual citizenship, the US does not. The fact that your mother was a US citizen when you were born gives you the right to claim US citizenship. When you do that (there is a swearing in ceremony, it’s not automatic), you have to renounce citizenship of any other country. Now Canada will still accept you as one of theirs, but the US doesn’t see it that way. If you go back and set up shop, you will give up your right to be a US citizen. Your mother should be a prime example. When she took Canadian citizenship she stoped being a US citizen in the eyes of the US, not Canada. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/17 "2000-07-24T16:59:15Z")
Satan, Even if this country turns entirely into a theocracy, complete with burning heretics at the stake, the U.S. has a _loooooong_ history of allowing people to leave the country if they have not yet committed a crime. In fact, a theocratic America would probably _want_ you to leave. “Go join your commie pinko hippie atheist friends in Canada or Sweden or Red China!” they’d say. I don’t think you’d have to ask for political asylum in another country to be allowed out of the U.S… ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/18 "2000-07-24T17:05:00Z")
You might be interested in Michael Moore’s new column at [grassroots.com](http://grassroots.com), [“Ain’t Fallin’ For That One Again”](http://www.grassroots.com/scripts/editorial.dll?bfromind=232&eeid=2768059&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&userid=191711775&userpw=.&uh=191711775,2,&ver=hb1.40). Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/19 "2000-07-24T17:06:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squid Vicious \* > \*\*Matt, (Why are Canadians so thick on this issue?) Canada recognizes dual citizenship, the US does not. The fact that your mother was a US citizen when you were born gives you the right to claim US citizenship. When you do that (there is a swearing in ceremony, it’s not automatic), you have to renounce citizenship of any other country. Now Canada will still accept you as one of theirs, but the US doesn’t see it that way. If you go back and set up shop, you will give up your right to be a US citizen. Your mother should be a prime example. When she took Canadian citizenship she stoped being a US citizen in the eyes of the US, not Canada. \*\* Guess you didn’t read my post. First I respectfully disagreed. Now that you are holding on to a false and untruthfull position, I’ll have to bust out the facts. > [@](#): > > t indeed used to be the case in the US that you couldn’t hold dual citizenship (except in certain cases if you had dual citizenship from birth or childhood, in which case some Supreme Court rulings – Perkins v. Elg (1939), Mandoli v. Acheson (1952), and Kawakita v. U.S. (1952) – permitted you to keep both). > > However, most of the laws forbidding dual citizenship were struck down in 1967 by the US Supreme Court. The court’s decision in this case, Afroyim v. Rusk, as well as a second case in 1980, Vance v. Terrazas, eventually made its way explicitly into the statute books in 1986; up till that time, the old laws were still on the books, but the State Department was effectively under court order to ignore them. > > Rules against dual citizenship still apply to some extent to people who wish to become US citizens via naturalization. The Supreme Court chose to leave in place the requirement that new citizens must renounce their old citizenship during US naturalization. However, in practice, the State Department is no longer doing anything in the vast majority of situations where a new citizen’s “old country” refuses to recognize the US renunciation. > > The official US State Department policy on dual citizenship today is that the United States does not favor it as a matter of policy because of various problems they feel it may cause, but the existence of dual citizenship is recognized in individual cases. That is, if you ask them if you ought to become a dual citizen, they will recommend against doing it; but if you tell them you are a dual citizen, they’ll usually say it’s OK. Next time check your facts. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645/20 "2000-07-24T17:24:50Z")
Incidentally, a majority of Americans did \* not \* vote for the Republicans in power now. A majority of \* those who voted \* did. And in many cases, it was a very slim majority–something like two votes in every disttrict. Whe you do the math, it works out to something like 20-30% that they got. Now I’m not challenging their right to rule (they did win the election), but it does make the “mandate of the people” thing seem a little shaky. Some better work by the Dems at getting out votes… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-if-i-dont-love-it-how-can-i-leave-it/26645.md?page=2)