# America is the greatest country on Earth? Delusional **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542 "2019-03-26T02:27:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/141 "2019-03-28T16:54:47Z")
Now I’m calling all citizens from all over the world This is Captain America calling I bailed you out when you were down on your knees So will you catch me now I’m falling ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/142 "2019-03-28T16:59:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Clearly. It’s simple - how “great” can you be if you can’t even conquer the obviously not-great? > > You’re saying it \*wasn’t \*to oust the Taliban? > > OK, so the US only _started_ being great 4 years ago? Or did you have some other point there? > Oh, yeah - “Mission Accomplished! Pay no attention to the ongoing operations behind the curtain!” > You’re claiming the US never attempted to oust the Taliban? > Oh, this is going to be a “definition of ousted” argument, is it? Because by my lights, any movement that still threatens 70% of a country and can kill in the national capital with relative impunity is not meaningfully “ousted” in any way.No, I’m not. It’s irrelevant. > You seem to think I equate “most powerful” with “great” when I clearly don’t. > > …and Afghanistan is a _failed_ challenge for that superpower. My point stands. “We are THE unchallenged superpower” is just “We are so great!” in different words. **MrDibble** , I like and respect you, but your efforts to mince words and make a cutesy argument here are actually making you look silly. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/143 "2019-03-28T17:50:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **MrDibble** , I like and respect you, but your efforts to mince words and make a cutesy argument here are actually making you look silly. I don’t necessarily see that he’s wrong; they’re debating the semantics of ousting. As Bear\_Nenno says, it’s true that the Taliban is no recognized as having political control over the Afghan government, but they’re by no means vanquished. If they were truly ousted, why is it that the United States is interested to have sit-down talks with the Taliban. They seem quite powerful for an ousted power. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/144 "2019-03-28T18:04:33Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I don’t necessarily see that he’s wrong; they’re debating the semantics of ousting. As Bear\_Nenno says, it’s true that the Taliban is no recognized as having political control over the Afghan government, but they’re by no means vanquished. If they were truly ousted, why is it that the United States is interested to have sit-down talks with the Taliban. They seem quite powerful for an ousted power. I just got back from a briefing on Afghanistan, the US isn’t even asking the Taliban to disarm/demobilize as a condition for peace. One of the presenters mentioned that he had participated in the negotiations to get the US out of Vietnam and that this negotiation feels the same: we’re tacitly acknowledging that we’ve lost. The big question is how many displaced ISIS fighters are going to relocate to Afghanistan like al Qaeda did and how soon until they are launching attacks from there like AQ did. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/145 "2019-03-28T20:06:00Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Igloos. You forgot the igloos. And Canadians. Canada has a distressing number of them. Yeah, it’s only about 150, but that’s too damned many. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/146 "2019-03-28T21:26:54Z")
BTW, the first time I got pitted it was for a fake rant about Canada. Somebody actually took me seriously! As in reality I would gladly add the Chicago area to the Peoples Republic of Ontario d’Sud, I thought it was funny. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/147 "2019-03-28T22:36:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Fuck you and your very American take on civility, you sanctimonious asshole. I had to read this several times to figure out what you were on about. I apologize. I misread your user name. I really did think it was Mr. Dribble. That wasn’t intended to be a pun or an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/148 "2019-03-28T22:41:03Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > Amen brother. > > Why, just look at the USA’s unparalleled success in the field. > > Really kicked butt in Korea! > Vietnam was a pure hill of win! > Defeated Iraq so well, they got to do it _twice_! > Unchecked victories in Afghanistan! Okay, you’re just trolling. I shouldn’t even bother commenting. South Korea was not taken over by the communist North. That was a victory. The first attack on Iraq was to expel them from Kuwait, a goal that was accomplished in record time. How could you possibly use that as an example of military failure? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/149 "2019-03-28T22:41:56Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I had to read this several times to figure out what you were on about. I apologize. I misread your user name. I really did think it was Mr. Dribble. That wasn’t intended to be a pun or an insult. Anyone could have made that mistake, Brear. Although it is strange that post 133 [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21561439&postcount=133](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21561439&postcount=133) does quote MrDibble as “Mr. Dribble” I don’t really see how one name is less flattering than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/150 "2019-03-28T22:50:16Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > As always, the question is whether we have the military capabilities, diplomatic acumen, financial resources, and political will to use our military capabilities in such a way to bring about satisfactory political outcomes. Indeed, those are always great questions. MrDibble had instead simply stated that the United States military was not a superpower, and pointed to Afghanistan as proof. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Although it is strange that post 133 [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=133](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=133) does quote MrDibble as “Mr. Dribble” Yea, that was my mistake as well. I manually typed the quote tag and just pasted the excerpt of his text I wanted to quote rather than using the quote button and deleting what I didn’t want. So that was me mistyping his name. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/151 "2019-03-28T23:10:53Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > If they were truly ousted, why is it that the United States is interested to have sit-down talks with the Taliban. They seem quite powerful for an ousted power. An even better question to ask, is “If the US really wanted the Taliban ‘ousted’, why has the political leadership refused to designate them as a hostile force?” From the [MilitaryTimes](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/01/20/isis-in-afghanistan-u-s-forces-ok-d-to-attack-emerging-offshoot/), “It’s also noteworthy that the hostile-force designation does not apply to the Taliban insurgent group, which continues to target U.S. and coalition forces. Consequently, American personnel can target Taliban fighters only when insurgents threaten U.S. or Afghan forces, the military official said. Only al Qaida and the Islamic State can be targeted simply because of their affiliation.” This is not the military being unable to destroy an enemy. This is the political will of the United States saying, “Don’t destroy that group.” > [@](#): > > But militaries exist in part to bring about political resolution, and they have to do so within specific contexts. Quite so. But it is another thing entirely to criticize the military for not doing something when their government forbids them from doing it, such as engaging the Taliban. I would have brought up these points earlier, but I actually thought they were classified. I’m glad to have found mention of it in the Military Times article cited above. The military was sent into Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power, and were specifically forbidden from attacking them further, unless in self-defense. These aren’t military failures. The military is doing exactly what it’s been allowed to do within the constraints imposed upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/152 "2019-03-28T23:14:56Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > An even better question to ask, is “If the US really wanted the Taliban ‘ousted’, why has the political leadership refused to designate them as a hostile force?” From the [MilitaryTimes](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/01/20/isis-in-afghanistan-u-s-forces-ok-d-to-attack-emerging-offshoot/), "It’s also noteworthy that the hostile-force designation does not apply to the Taliban insurgent group, which continues to target U.S. and coalition forces. Consequently, American personnel can target Taliban fighters only when insurgents threaten U.S. or Afghan forces, the military official said. Only al Qaida and the Islamic State can be targeted simply because of their affiliation. It’s possibly a very wise decision that was made based on the fact that we’ve killed thousands of “Taliban” civilians in Afghanistan already, and designating Taliban as a hostile force would click the safety off the guns that would kill thousands more. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/153 "2019-03-28T23:21:16Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It’s possibly a very wise decision that was made based on the fact that we’ve killed thousands of “Taliban” civilians in Afghanistan already, and designating Taliban as a hostile force would click the safety off the guns that would kill thousands more. Perhaps, but there are already restrictions in place to prevent that. This decision actually prevents the US military from attacking a truck full of armed Taliban, even if they’re all waving huge Taliban flags and driving through an open field, miles away from civilians or buildings. The decision may have prevented some civilian deaths just as a secondary effect, but that certainly wasn’t the reasoning behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/154 "2019-03-28T23:41:27Z")
The reasoning behind the decision is simply because the government of Afghanistan views the Taliban as a political enemy, not a military one. They’ve wanted to reconcile with them since the beginning. Until recently, the Taliban have never wanted to talk it out, they wanted to be in full control. And they planned to regain that control through violence. Now that the Taliban is much weaker, and the Afghan military and police have grown stronger, the Taliban have finally agreed to talks. It is no coincidence that last year, President Trump [loosened targeting restrictions](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/419227-trump-ramps-up-airstrikes-as-taliban-peace-talks-remain-elusive) and increased airstrikes in an effort to force them to the table. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/155 "2019-03-29T05:15:30Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > One of the most ridiculous examples of American ‘delusionalism’ is our reverence for the Constitution, as though it were some sort of holy grail of political thought. It’s still the very same rich white male constitution it’s always been. A fact not lost on those who most often cite it no matter the context or relevance. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/156 "2019-03-29T05:32:42Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I had to read this several times to figure out what you were on about. I apologize. I misread your user name. I really did think it was Mr. Dribble. That wasn’t intended to be a pun or an insult. Sure. That’s why you manually edited a quote box to say that too. :rolleyes: Coward. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/157 "2019-03-29T05:35:47Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > MrDibble had instead simply stated that the United States military was not a superpower, and pointed to Afghanistan as proof. I didn’t say they weren’t a superpower. I dispute that they are unchallenged. They are very “challenged”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/158 "2019-03-29T05:41:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **MrDibble** , I like and respect you, but your efforts to mince words and make a cutesy argument here are actually making you look silly. I’m not “mincing words”, I believe that an “unchallenged superpower” that can’t\* defeat a bunch of hill tribesmen isn’t worthy of the name. And the Taliban is not defeated. Or “ousted” in anything but butt-covering sophistry terms. - or “won’t because of political will”, as **Nenno** would have it. As if that made a difference, since “superpower” implies both military and political power together. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/160 "2019-03-29T11:07:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I didn’t say they weren’t a superpower. I dispute that they are unchallenged. They are very “challenged”. Mr. Dribble makes a good point and adds a Parthian shot worthy of The Economist magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542/161 "2019-03-29T11:37:54Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > The reasoning behind the decision is simply because the government of Afghanistan views the Taliban as a political enemy, not a military one. They’ve wanted to reconcile with them since the beginning. Until recently, the Taliban have never wanted to talk it out, they wanted to be in full control. And they planned to regain that control through violence. > Now that the Taliban is much weaker, and the Afghan military and police have grown stronger, the Taliban have finally agreed to talks. It is no coincidence that last year, President Trump [loosened targeting restrictions](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/419227-trump-ramps-up-airstrikes-as-taliban-peace-talks-remain-elusive) and increased airstrikes in an effort to force them to the table. I think that derives from the fact that America doesn’t conquer countries, it “liberates” them - in other words, it purportedly invades them for their own good, freeing them from themselves. The problem with this is that it feels compelled to collaborate with local elements to assuage its conscience, but the only elements who will work with America are bottom-feeders who would collaborate with an invading power. We saw that it Vietnam, we saw it in Iraq and we saw it in Afghanistan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-greatest-country-on-earth-delusional/831542.md?page=9)